Guatemala questions

Whistle
1

I saw a very interesting instrument in a film I saw on Wednesday night about Guatemala. It had six holes like a whistle, as far as I could see, but it had what appeared to be a double reed, like an oboe or bombarde. Anyone seen any similar indigenous instruments in Central America?

Steve

Warning: Off-topic political message follows. If you find off-topic political messages disturbing or objectionable, please do not read.

PS The film was a documentary called Haunted Land, by Canadian director Mary Ellen Davis. It was about an atrocity that occurred in a remote Maya village in 1982. Over 70 people, half of them children, were massacred by the Guatemalan army to terrorize the people and to erode support for anti-government guerrillas. Only 13 villagers survived. They fled, or stayed in the hills, when they saw the army coming. They buried the dead by knocking down the earth houses to cover the bodies where they lay. In the film we watched archeologists exhuming the bones, proving that the survivors had been telling the truth.

One of the 13 survivors now lives in Canada. He was there to speak to us after the showing. His young wife and two children were among the murdered. What can you say to such a man? There were, we learned, over 600 such massacres in the Guatemalan civil war. Perpetrated by a regime that was apparently supported and funded by the US government. 600 massacres in one relatively unimportant little Central American country.

I found myself wondering how this squared with all the rhetoric we have heard in recent months about terrorism and those who support and help terrorists. Any answers?

2

It may have ben the Kena (Quena?) flute, or an equivalent. There is a huge flute tradition in South and Central America. For more info on the Kena check this link http://www.shakuhachi.com/F-Kena.html
Chris
P.S. - Thank you for your post on the Guatamalan atrocities. My uncle has worked in Chiapas Mexico for thirty years helping the Mayan people there, so the issue is near and dear to me, as is any instance of human suffering. As for terrorism, sometimes it is the government that is the terrorist and it uses it’s power and authority to brand rebel factions terrorists and summarily silence them through the same means the government claims to oppose. You’ll see it all over the world, including in the USA. In order for the people to respect the government the government must first respect the people.


[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-01-25 09:25 ]

3

Doh! Repost.

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisLaughlin on 2002-01-25 09:24 ]

4

Off Topic Response:

Gentlemen, kindly remember that the US Government sends money (some of which actually does reach poor people) to foreign Governments all over the world (nearly all countries in some form or another, even Afghanistan), and unfortunately, some of these governments turn out to be lying, thieving, murdering scum. Unfortunately also, when that is eventually discovered, Governmental inertia takes a while to overcome. And sometimes we have to choose which of two groups of murdering scum to support. My personal preference would be “none of the above”.

And, like everybody else, when bad things take place in our own back yards, it grabs our attention more quickly.

5

Another off topic response - I know personally someone who has run an outreach to the native Guatemalens for many years. They worked on projects like building homes (about 12 x 12 feet, with wood walls and metal roofs, far better than what they had before) for widows and establishing clean water supplies for the mountain villages. My friend has told me that both sides of the conflict inflicted atrocities on the natives. One thing that would happen is that one side would force the natives to give them food, then the other side would come in and kill some of the men for giving food to the first guys in. I’m sure the gevernmental army was not innocent, but the communists weren’t exactly kind and loving, either.

6

Often during the 80s there was a sort
of argument that chronicled the
atrocities committed by right wing
governments at war with Marxist guerillas:
the death squads, massacres,
large numbers of people dissapearing, and so on. The conclusion drawn was usually
that we should support the guerillas,
or at least not support the government
against them. The missing premiss in the argument was that the guerillas weren’t much
worse. Often they were–recall Pol Pot
and the killing fields.

I know more about other countries than
I do about Guatemala–but I did think
there was the following pattern. If
you want to promote democracy and
there is either going to be a stable
dictatorship or an unstable one, support
the latter. Left wing dictatorships
tended to last and often to be more
murderous and repressive.
The right wing sort were
fundamentally corrupt and inefficient,
if we supported
them against the insurgents we could
get considerable leverage over them,
could get them to start planting the
seeds of democracy in small ways,
as we did in the Philipines.

Sooner or later right wing dictatorships
reduced the economy to a shambles, the
dictators were rich, we would invite
them to flee to Miami and on the way
out they would say: ‘We did it all
to pave the way for democracy.’

While a lot of people blasted the USA for
its support of right wing dictatorships,
I do think this had something to do
with the extraordinary flowering of
pluralistic democracies during the
80s and early 90s. I don’t know whether
the ends justified the means.
I liked the results.



[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2002-01-25 23:58 ]

7

All the quenas I’ve ever seen/played have no reed(a) at all. They are basically and end-blown whistle with half the mouthpiece missing. Your lower lip becomes the other half when you play.

8

John is correct about the Quena,it has a voicing similar to a Japanese Shakuhachi(“D” shaped labium ramp with no fipple plug).

The instrument SteveJ suggests, could be a local form of double reed Bombard or Musette(as you said). Both are from the “shawm” family. These types of instruments were imported by the Spaniards 500 years ago and were adopted/adapted to local and tribal music. The String Harp and most lute style instruments,like madolins and guitars have modified south american counterparts from the same source.

[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-01-26 13:36 ]

9

Thank you all for your thoughts. I’d love to take issue with points that some of you made, but I know this is not the place for such a discussion. (I’m mildly surprised that Dale hasn’t nuked this thread as it is.)

But I will say that it wasn’t my intention to debate the relative merits of right-wing murderers and left-wing murderers.

It seems to me that murderers are murderers, and terrorists are terrorists. Our governments, however, distinguish between those of them who are bad/evil (whom it is right and good to destroy) and those who are not-bad/not-evil (whom it is right and good to prop up, abet or finance).

There has to be a better way. That’s all.

10

I just want to say that I appreciated and respect everyone’s viewpoints here. It’s nice to have a civil dialogue of this nature, even if it probably doesn’t belong on this board.
Thanks,
Chris

11

steve, there is a better way. Jesus layed it out 2000 years ago. Unfortunately human nature continues to get in the way.

12

SteveJ

Here is a photo of some folk shawms

{The holes in the bell are plugged or partialy plugged to tune the bell note.}

As far as the “situation” is concerned. I believe that organized religion, of any kind, is a Disease that has caused warfare for millenia. Both sides scream “GOD IS WITH US!!” before they kill each other over insignificant details of religious doctrin.

As soon as a religious leader gains a “flock” they always abuse their power by preaching their personal convictions and prejudice to this flock. Religion is a private matter and must be kept so without pious leaders.

In the “Old testament”,“Jewish Tora(sp?)”,and “Koran” God states that “As soon as 2 stones are laid,one upon the other,it ceases to be hallowed ground and a place of worship”

God(genderless)is to be found in nature and natural places and religion is to be discussed among believers without a designated leader. No man or woman is closer to God than another.God made all Humans equal and beyond any “class system”.

Of course,these are my opinions. I profess them in a peaceful manner. Religious fanatisizm is at the root of every war Man has ever fought. Don’t you think we could all be a little more tolerant of others and their peaceful beliefs? Our survival as a race depends on it!!!

[ This Message was edited by: Thomas-Hastay on 2002-01-26 14:26 ]

13

I think it is useful to remember that while international relations can be similar to relations between individual people, they are by no means always so. During the Second World War, we were allied with the Soviet Union, then under Stalin, against Hitler and what he had made of Germany. Now Stalin was a monster, and arguably much more hideous an one than Hitler considering what he was doing to his own people, but he wasn’t at that point out to conquer the world. Hitler was. Therefore, Hitler was the BadGuy so far as we were concerned, and reasonably so. Churchill remarked at one point that if Hitler were to invade Hell, he ( Churchill ) would manage to make a favorable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.

It is quite clear that without the help of the Soviets, who actually bore the brunt of the fight against Hitler’s Germany, the war in Europe would have had a much different outcome. That Stalin stayed in the war essentially meant that Hitler would ultimately lose. Without Stalin, if the Soviets had made a separate peace, Hitler would have won in Europe. Is anyone really suggesting that under the circumstances, we shouldn’t have allied ourselves with Stalin, whose crimes greatly exceed those of Hitler, in the war?

In international relations, the main issues revolve around the security and prosperity of nation states. When it comes to security, necessity very commonly makes for strange, even distasteful, bedfellows, and there is generally no such thing as “right” and “wrong,” only successful and unsuccessful, wise and unwise, policies. By the time of the events in Guatemala, World Communism had sworn to destroy the West and the Cold War was at its height. The fact that the principals were not engaged in actual combat does not alter the fact that the stakes were huge, and that the battles were bitterly fought.

War, cold or hot, is never conducted cleanly; it is a kind of lethal chaos analogous to a huge storm. We wring our hands in a frenzy nowadays over “collateral casualties,” but read up some time about what happened in Europe as the Allies were liberating it. Thousands and more of French people died in Allied bombing raids, killed by accident. It would be better that wars never happened, that murders never happened, but such a goal is impossible to reach. In any group of a hundred thousand people or so, there are always going to be a handful who think that cutting throats is great entertainment. There are more of them born every minute, and some of them become heads of state. Sometimes what the good citizens of the world are required to do to defeat such people is exceedingly unpleasant – as emptying a rat trap is unpleasant – but, as with the rat trap, the alternative is absolutely unacceptable.

Reason and good intentions are not effective against evil.

Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary.

14

ndjr

I agree with you whole-heartedly about the unpleasant use of evil to destroy evil and I have great doubts about our survival as a race. History is written by the Victor,not the vanquished,but most people push this fact aside.

One example: The modern world sees Hitler as the worst “Beast” ever born, But what of Queen Isabella of Spain? She started and supported the Inquisition that tortured and burned 9 million women,men and children at the stake. Hitler’s 3 million murdered Jews are only a 3rd of this.

We must see that the potential for evil is in all of us and must be controled. I hope my son’s generation will not repeat historical precident. Love of Music and the Arts goes a long way towards controling the Beast.

15

Though off topic this has been an
interesting thread to read. I believe
it’s allright to sometimes discuss
something other than alternative
fingerings and which maker makes
good on delivery promises. Puts our
little world in perspective.

Dlambert,
I agree human nature continually
gets in the way but it was all laid
out long before Jesus 2000 years ago
or Mohammed 1400 years ago. If
anything that just created a bigger
mess. My 0.02 cents worth.

Kelhorn Mike