Grey's book.

Irish Flute
41

Yes, what would the clip show in relation to his most recent comment? That Cork can successfully direct his air stream at different angles to produce the first and second octave? I agree that posting clips is great to build community and have some understanding of where people are coming from, but it isn’t the only way. I wouldn’t consider a person who only knows facts but can’t play a tune to be an “authority” on ITM, but nor would I consider an authentic musical representative of a particular style of ITM to be an authority more than simply an exponent of their tradition.

I personally enjoy studying ethnomusicology as well as performance, and Grey’s book serves as a great resource for a descriptive introduction to the general ITM playing style. It fills a necessary gap in this field and gives people more ways to study the tradition.

42

It seems that even within Ireland itself ITM could appear to be in some transition, that the differences between regional styles could more recently be somewhat diminished, apparently.

So, given an apparent, global interest in ITM, just what interpretation, of any traditional piece, could be correct?

I could play it Yankee style, but perhaps that could disappoint somebody. I could also play it in a number of other styles, but perhaps again as a disappointment. So, to what standard should ITM be played?

43

Not a fan of white bread, myself, literally or figuratively, but it is attitudes such as yours (and the late Andrew’s) that drove me from this forum several years ago, and may yet again.

Regarding your latest “I haven’t seen you post a clip” challenge – posting clips is, or should be, fun, and interesting, but it’s also highly overrated. Many of the clips - yours included - are only mediocre, and that hardly makes you an authority over others here. I haven’t posted, myself, mostly because I haven’t figured out how, and I’m in the middle of moving. Will my eventual clip(s) blow others away? Undoubtedly not. My taste, and style, is simple, and not intended so much to impress, as to be enjoyed. I’m also not particularly pressed to prove anything to the various players out to challenge every post. I have growing to do, after ten or so years playing, as do you.
Still, I would never have been so judgemental or harsh had the idea of clips been the product of good will, and not at the instigation of a line-drawn-in-sand challenges to everyone that wants to contribute here.
Lastly, sorry, all, for the tirade, but I’ve walked away from so many threads lately, shaking my head at the unnecessary hostility, and prove-yourself attitudes. Maybe I’ll just walk away, again, instead.
Gordon

44

Can you stand an on-topic Doh! from me?

Turns out there are exercises for practicing technique in the back. See what happens when you try to take his advice to do the book in order?

Now why didn’t he say, after introducing cuts, “Now, turn to the exercises in the back of the book and practice all the cuts exercises 20 times each every day for 20 years” or something like that?

45

academic background…he expects everyone to know that the answers are in the back :wink:

46

The idea of posting clips was motivated this way: let’s voluntarily share our music, teach each other tunes, and increase our musical community. A great idea! I don’t have the equipment with me to post a clip, but I was looking forward to posting one (and learning how to do it) when I return to St. Louis.

Unfortunately the idea has a dark side, which has ‘uncloaked’ in several posts saying, in effect: ‘Post a clip or shut up!’ This looks like an effort to control who posts what, accompanied by posts trying to bully people into compliance. Implicit in these posts is the threat of another one: ‘Some of us feel your playing isn’t good enough for you to post advice on this board.’

This second agenda is bad news, IMO. It threatens to make something competitive of our music. Also it threatens to drive people from the board and to make many who stay think twice before saying what they think. Some of us don’t know how to post a clip or lack the equipment; others have no wish to ‘prove their competence to the board.’

Personally I don’t think we should have any threshold-requirement at all for responding to requests for advice. Posting clips should be entirely a matter of voluntarily sharing our music, I submit. If it is advertised as a way of enabling readers to evaluate our advice, well, we’re asking for trouble; we’ve seen what happens then. Best to keep these things separate.

I’m frustrated that we’ve gone a good distance toward spoiling a great idea. Personally if I do post a clip, I’ll do it only after it’s plain the second agenda is finished.

47

Tirade? That’s not a tirade. That’s just a healthy vent. Heck, I’ve done that.

Please, don’t go away! My own sentiments in regard to posting clips are similar to yours, and the only reason why I have not said much about clips is simply because I am trying to avoid fanning any flames around here. Really, I have better things to do.

Clips can be a really good thing, and to those who feel inclined to post one, then go for it!

However, I do not post clips, in part because I prefer to remain somewhat unknown, that my opinion could be of some doubt. That’s OK with me. Let the reader decide.

48

Cocus trolls, people take the bait, and all of a sudden the thread’s about him. He didn’t invent the technique, but he uses it well. I mean, we’ve all heard his clips by now, right? I know I have. And so we see how celebrity is forged.

Last time around I suggested we focus some positive energy his way, and move on with our discussion. The hope was that on reflection, he’d come around and enjoy the very nice thing we have here, or possibly move on to a brighter spotlight.

Anyway, regarding Grey Larsen’s book: As a mediocre player, I still highly recommend it.

49

In essence, I think clips could help to develop a greater sense of community, here, and I have no objection to the posting of any clip. However, apparently clips have since then become something of a performance standard, without which one’s ability could be in some doubt.

I object to that.

50

Nobody has ever posted a comment critical of anybody else’s clip- except a player speaking of his own clip, and Gordon. It isn’t about how good you are. Nobody else has used a clip to belittle a person who posted the clip. All of us have been supportive of every person who has posted. That’s lovely and to be expected here.
The Great Migoya once said, quoting a baseball player (probably a loathéd Yankee), “It ain’t boasting if you can do it.” My beef is with people who continually advise other people how to play. It’s a form of boasting. If Migoya or Gray Larsen were to post advice wouldn’t we be more receptive to the advice than if it came from somebody whose accomplishment was in some doubt?
“Put up or shut-up” is only a small part of what I am saying. Those people who respond only to that aspect are probably fearful that, if they post a clip that doesn’t measure up to some standard, they’ll be thought less of. But it’s obvious that people who have posted clips, no matter how they feel about their own clips, have received a warm, positive reception from the rest of us. We feel we know them better, that they have entered our community in a positive, trusting way. Nobody – except the petulant Gordon – has used a clip as ammunition against another player.
I miss Andrew. He enlivened debate. He took flute-playing into the real world of politics and environmental concern and world hunger. He was opinionated and acerbic and brutally honest. And witty. I miss him a lot more than I’d ever miss Gordon’s departure from the forum. And that’s the last of what I’ll say to or about Gordon.
And I am honestly glad for those people who have found Gray’s book to be of help. I am not on a crusade against it. I recognize Gray’s expertise. Other people, whose opinions I respect, like his playing. I don’t, particularly, but that’s my taste. And I still insist that there is no substitute for a hands-on teacher. Playing ITM is about far more than cuts and rolls. There is far more to be learned about the music from Eamonn Cotter’s interview (and the other interviews as well) on http://www.firescribble.net than from most tutors.
The best tutor for beginners, IMNSHO, is Timber, written by Fintan Vallely 20 years ago. The Irish Traditional Music Archive has a lot to say about learning ITM, at: http://www.itma.ie/Publications/LearningLeaflet.html
Sorry for not posting these sources earlier.

51

I’ve made it clear previously that I partially accept Cocus’s point about the usefulness of clip-posting, whilst deprecating his apparent crusade to get us all to do it or refrain from posting. One can talk sense that self-evidently comes from knowledge and experience without having to “prove” it - and in any case, one may well understand how to do something in theory better than one can perform it oneself: should deficiencies in one’s own ability preclude offering technically sound advice/info? The whole “those who can do, those who can’t teach” thing has a conceptual and real-life flip side: many of the greatest and most respected teachers (in many different fields, but especially the Arts) have not necessarily been the most publicly succesful exponents of their particular skill, the most virtuosic practitioners; but they may have a special skill at teaching (necessarily based on sound practical and theoretical knowledge) that lets them impart to and elicit from their pupils greater things than they can achieve themselves. So I sympathise substantially with recent posts in this thread taking umbrage at Cocus’s position and the way he comes across.

Re: the quote I’ve extracted above… when I myself recently finally got around to (making the effort to!) posting some clips, I received absolutely NO feedback of any kind, critical (probably deserved and potentially constructively helpful) or otherwise. I’m not seeking, and wasn’t expecting, a rush of approbation to make me feel good (!!!), but the complete lack of response makes me wonder whether anyone has actually listened to them at all, and if not, what was the point (esp. in Cocus’ great schema)? No-one has even complained that I posted self-composed tunes (because that was what I happened to have recordings of available) rather than trad ones, which I half expected! I did post a clip of Out on the Ocean in awildman’s thread Separating notes of the same pitch - Irish Flute - Chiff & Fipple, but that too elicited no reaction - indeed, killed the thread! Perhaps (I DON’T think) my renditions were so stunningly brilliant/awful that no-one could think of anything to say??? Or I’m even scarier than Cocus :boggle: !

I shall now go and sulk in the coal-shed. (Again. :cry: )

52

I believe in an efficiency of the Internet, in that GL can publish a book, and, by golly, here we are, talking about it. In that sense, word can travel far, wide, and fast.

In a similar sense, if somebody posts advise on a subject, then perhaps that person could anticipate other advise, opinion, or input, equally fast, perhaps as a major revision, perhaps as a slight variation, or whatever.

53

i liked 'em. not being any sort of decent player myself, i wouldn’t presume to offer advice; but encouragement, yes, i liked the clips and keep them coming.

54

Sorry Jem. I should have given you some feedback but you can be prickly, which made me hesitant. I’ve listened to your clips several times. I was in a workshop with Catherine McEvoy once and after I played she had nothing to say to me except “keep on- you’re on the right track.” I felt deflated. So I understand how you feel.
I have mixed feelings about your self-composed tunes. There’s a great feeling of wildness about them. I admire the air of abandon. But I prefer more traditional tunes.
The Sullane Jig is far more to my taste. I’d never heard it before. Your playing shows a high level of accomplishment. Great tone as well, though at times I thought your playing was forced, especially in the high octave. I prefer hearing a smoother transition to the high notes. It sounds like a devil of a tune. Do you play it with people, or just solo? I’d love to hear a clip of you playing a more common tune.
I am delighted to hear your playing. I feel as if I know you better.

55

For the record, my tirade (restrained as I hoped it was) was not meant to attack anyone, even Cocusflute, merely to point out that the ‘dark side’, as Jim aptly put it, was taking precidence over the more useful (and fun) side of posting. Cocusflute plays well – I’d have said so if we were playing over a pint. But as the ever-present arbiter of skill? Even if the best players out there – from Harry to Rob to Dave, and then some – were to begin to question every other player’s credentials, I would have said the same about them. The difference is, all those folks haven’t behaved in this way – they understand what playing is all about, and that even advice from the highly skilled is only as good as it is, given the anonymity of this forum.

Which brings us back to Grey Larsen, a highly skilled player – like his style or not - who did what few have done, which is attempt to teach the basics in a well-thought out and thorough method book. As good as sitting at a great player’s table? No, but many great players don’t even know how to explain what they do – particularly the old-style players. Jack Coen used to tell me “I wiggle my finger here a bit.” Not exactly a step-by-step on how to do a roll. And crans? He doesn’t do them – I had to find out how somewhere else, although, frankly, I don’t do 'em either.

So Grey put a useful, but not universally perfect book together. Jack used to tell me that if I pulled more than one tune from a collection that was good, it was a useful collection. So it goes for Greys book – if you pull anything at all from it (and I daresay you will), it’s a useful book (I don’t say this as an endorsement, btw – I’ve only checked out some samples from his site, not read his book).

Regarding clips, once again; theoretically, we should post clips, if we got 'em, in the same spirit we show up at a session - assuming, of course, that it’s a cordial, fun session. If this were to become the case, then I’ll eventually post something, not for criticisms or accolades, but because I’m happy about something I recorded and want to share it, over a metaphorical round of Guinness.

Gordon

56

I’ve enjoyed the clips, all very helpful and encouraging, but not because they’ve helped me sort out whose advice to take more or less seriously, at least not any more effectively than a reading of the board over time has done. I’ve just enjoyed hearing you all play. I’m very appreciative of those willing to post clips and to encourage others to do so. As to the put-up-or-shut-up aspect–well, playing for others and getting their reactions is certainly an important part of learning, as is the ability to receive criticism, but the where, when & how is up to the player, I think, and shouldn’t be the ante one puts up to be part of the community. (There was an incident on the board some time back where a member was encouraged to post a clip and then criticized quite strongly. I won’t link to it, since it was unfortunate in a variety of ways. But it has happened.)

57

Thankyou, Cocusflute. Your kind attention in your quote and the comment I’ve highlighted in particular represent the positive side of clip-posting in very much the way rh, Gordon and JS have put it in their last few posts - better than I could. I agree with most of what they say.
The Sullane is also one of my own tunes, hence you not hearing it before. I’ve only played it solo, not having taught it to anyone, though I have given the dots to various people… I also haven’t put it in a set, though a while back I was contemplating playing it after Hammy’s own Woodcock - which I haven’t actually learnt yet, but may come back to. As for more common tunes, here’s the link to my (fairly hastily done) take on Out on the Ocean http://www.box.net/shared/qby5kb4vz8 (Eldarion has just, I discover, given me some helpful feedback on that on its original thread.)
Tone is my biggest bugbear - as for so many of us, I sometimes hit a groove for a short while, but mostly find it a constant struggle. As I said before, I think my general tone and intonation have improved in recent months, so maybe there’ll be a noticeable difference if and when I get around to doing some up-to-date clips.

On the ostensible main topic of this thread (deviation from which I am substantially party to! Mea Culpa!), I should perhaps just say that I have not yet seen or laid hands on Grey Larsen’s book, nor indeed heard his playing, though I have browsed his website and read some extracts of his book somewhere. - so I really can’t pass comment, save that the huge effort he made to write such a work as it appears to be is entirely praiseworthy and I’m quite sure it is a mine of useful material. How one choses to use such works is always personal. I have yet to see a flute tutor book (in any musical genre) with which I would have no quibbles.

58

It’s fairer to say that you perceive it as boasting. It’s just as easy to believe that it’s simply someone who is very helpful, or someone who has seen many unhelpful replies on this bulletin board and wants to actually respond to a request even if he or she is not the most expert player, or… I can think of many reasons.

More to the point, if you don’t have a problem with the advice being offered, why do you care? Without ever having picked up the flute I can advise someone that the normal playing position for a right-handed player is left hand top. Whether I’ve played for 20 years or 20 minutes, posted a clip or not, doesn’t affect the value of that advice. If you do have a problem with the advice someone gives, rather than a passive aggressive snipe at their “credentials”, how about posting what you think is the correct advice – or at least contribute in some meaningful way to the discussion?

– Scott

59

Thank you very much for the above advice - it actually helps; a long way to go but at least I feel I can make progress now.