FYI - On Dealing with Sam Murray

I used to collect flutes. I have owned a lot of them. One maker of great repute got mad at me for selling flutes on eBay that I had bought from him, but I have friendships with a number of other flutemakers. I have not been a hell-raiser of ruffler of many feathers for years. I feel compelled now, though, to tell you about my experience in dealing with Sam Murray.

I have a blackwood Murray flute that I got from Patrick Jones. It was a lovely, easy transaction (as all have been with him) and it’s a great flute. It was the third Murray flute I had owned. I’d sold the others before I got this one. This one has textured silver rings. Patrick got it from Sam, and I got it, new, from Patrick.

I sold off a lot of flutes when we were raising money to buy our new house. I had only a couple of Irish flutes left. I started thinking about ordering a boxwood 8-keyed flute from Sam. I had read the other threads on this forum about Sam’s tendency to be a bad communicator, and about the delays, and the possibility of incorrect tuning. I decided to try it anyway.

I wrote to Sam on June 18th, 2008, to ask about an 8-key boxwood flute. I heard nothing back and wrote again on June 24th. On June 27th, he wrote back and told me the price and that there would be an 8-10 month wait. I wrote back immediately that I would like to go ahead. Each time I wrote to him (and this pattern never stopped), there was a delay before I heard back. Sometimes a 3-week delay. And sometimes he didn’t write back at all, and I would write again, and wait for a response. We worked things out this way, slowly. On August 9th, I heard from Sam that the bank transfer of the deposit had come through.

So, if the flute had been ready in the time frame he mentioned (from the time the deposit went through), it would have been finished sometime around April-June, 2009. Miraculously, I got a note from Sam in June of 2009 that he was working on the flute and it would be done in 2-3 weeks, so I should go ahead and transfer the rest of the money, which I did on June 16th, the morning after I received his note.

On July 9th, I received a note that Sam would like to call me to discuss something, and I replied with my phone number. In the response, I was told he’d call that Monday. There were a few promises of phone calls, and a suggestion on my part that we have this conversation in email, and Sam finally called me in early September. Yeah, that’s right.

He was very pleasant, and he explained that he had an unforseen problem with the wood, and that he had started to season new wood from the same log, for the pieces that hadn’t worked out. He wanted to make up for the delay, and he offered me two options. He said I could have a refund of 450 Euros, or he would decorate the flute to artistic, “exhibition standards.” I chose the second option. I remembered a beautiful Murray Boxwood flute I’d seen on this forum, nitric acid stained and with ivory rings, to make up for a long delay such as this one. I was excited about how my flute would look.

I wrote a few weeks later, pointing out that it had been three months since I had paid in full. A few days later, I got a note saying he would ship it that weekend. I received the flute a few weeks after that, on October 3rd.

Apart from being a different wood (boxwood instead of blackwood) and having keys, it is exactly the same as the standard one I got from Patrick Jones. It has the same textured rings. It has no staining, no ivory, no extra embellishment. The tone holes are not sanded AT ALL, and there are wood shavings around them. The embouchure also has some wood shavings in it. He has padded the keys with some kind of paper-like foam. It does not seal properly, and the resulting tone is less than thrilling. Fortunately, the flute is in perfect tune. I will need to send it to an American flutemaker/repairer to make it playable, as the pads are unacceptable and the holes need to be finished.

I wrote to Sam immediately, reminding him that he had offered me a choice: partial refund or significant embellishment, and I wanted to claim the partial refund, since he had not embellished the flute (and, furthermore, I will have to pay to have the flute made playable). He didn’t respond. I wrote again. And again. Finally, I wrote that I was very disappointed that he was not responding, and I couldn’t believe he would conduct business this way, and that if I didn’t hear from him, I would contact a flute friend of mine who lives in Ireland, to get him to help me get a response. Weeks later (yesterday, November 20), I got an unfriendly email from Sam, saying that the rings are textured, and that is embellishment, and I am welcome to return the flute for a refund. I will NOT do this, because I am fairly certain that I would not receive the refund and never hear from him again.

This will be a very nice flute after I have it properly padded, as Sam’s flute design is a great one. However, the process of dealing with him has been excruciating, and I think you all have a right to know about it.

Of course we do. We share good experiences all the time. Bad ones are equally valuable to know about, maybe moreso.

This is the kind of information that makes these forums worthwhile. Thanks for that.

Thanks for your courage to make this public. However I don’t think that this thread will last long. Negative criticism of makers is not allowed here. I, too, have some “nice” stories to share regarding instrument makers, but I tried to share them once, and was deleted only minutes later. The reason that was stated by the moderator was that a maker once sued the forum due to negative criticism someone posted here. So they decided to delete the questionale messages/threads.

JessieK, You can’t say you weren’t warned.
You knew who you were dealing with.
In that sense you should accept some of the blame.

Not true. Dale has made the guidelines for negative commentary quite clear. There is a difference between reporting the cold facts of an experience (as Jessie has done here), and editorializing about the character and ancestry of a maker. Also, negative comments are not an invitation to a group pile-on, rehashing of old grievances, or metacommentary. Posts that run afoul of these distinctions will be moderated. If in doubt, check with Dale or the mods before posting. Thanks!

To be honest, that’s new to me. The moderator I mailed with told me to keep the story (which contained the cold facts and nothing more) with me and never ever post anything about it again, which I did. I’ll have to take my post above back then.

Thanks, Gabriel. Yes, it’s always a judgment call on the part of your humble moderators, and we’re only human. :slight_smile:

As for liability, it’s safe to assume that responsibility for the content of a post rests with the poster.

I had a very unfortunate business with Sam about a flute.

You can look for my posts on this subject in the forum.

He still owes me some of the money I paid him although (to his credit and after many many phone calls (to an answering machine), many emails, many snail mails and appealing to anyone who knew the man) I did get most of it back.

My advice - if you want a Murray flute, find one from someone else - don’t order it from the maker.

Chuck

Yes, Julia, I was warned here on the forum. But the major warning, with details, came when it was too late. Oh well.

Well I think everyone has to find out for his or her self.
My experience with Sam in terms of getting my Flute was very much like Jessies. I really do like talking with Sam, but acquiring a Flute from him was draining After being told the Flute was ready, I like others sent the balance and then it was quite a roller coaster ride before I actually recieved the Flute. The Flute was perfect however unlike Jessies Flute. Ive said it before I’ll say it again Sam I love ya, but here is what people need to do when getting a Flute from you…pay 5% upfront … the rest CASH ON DELIVERY!!! that way there are NO MISUNDERSTANDINGS :smiley: that said there are 2 other ways to do this… have a tough guy you can hire in Galway to pick up your Flute, or for peace of mind just order an equally good flute from Terry McGee!
I rest my case!
Ben Shaffer
Jessie…your Cat looks really pissed :astonished:

Ben, you are perceptive about my cat! I have two of them. My husband and children have trouble distinguishing between them, but I can tell them apart immediately, even in the dark, whether I can feel them or not. One of them (Sola) is amazing. She is sweet and good-natured, gentle and thoughtful. I trust her with my children. The other (in the picture) is selfish and harsh. She runs over our faces and I try to keep the kids away from her. The two cats do love each other, though, as they are sisters. Sola gets better, and Luna seems to get worse, with time.

I’ve been far more lucky with consistent sweetness in my human children. :slight_smile:

Is Sam watching this forum and can reply? because if he’s not, and I can sympathize with the poster very much, it’s still inappropriate of a post IMHO. I never dealt with the flutemaker, though I might gather now that mr. Murray is always like that with everybody…

Jessie,
Sounds like our cats are related, Audrey is as sweet as can be , Fifi, the other seems to have PMS most of the time. The third, the older cat Ingrid is always hissing at our our Beagle Brownie… Ben, your getting off topic boy :poke:
Back to our discussion…
Here in the South when you do business with someone, if they don’t deliver the goods, well lets put it this way… we’ll be having a come to Jesus Meeting with them :smiley:
Lets face it to in this situation the maker is thousands of Miles away from us which complicates things, if the maker was say down here in Asheboro, I could send my brother in law Bubba around to pick up the Flute :laughing:
But after all is said and done what can one say?.. the allure of a great Flute seems to trump common sense :stuck_out_tongue:
And Jessie you ARE NOT to blame in this situation, I really think most people we play with and do business with in the chiff and Fipple music world are trustworthy with a few exceptions. That we give some people the benefit of the doubt is OK

Dear Jessie:

I think you are VERY brave to post this, flute makers are not gods or nothing like them.
Flute makers, luthiers or dealers owe the costumer profesionalism, quality in their work and serious manners.

As players, it’s very good and nice to admire makers, their work, the beautiful instruments they make and their correspondent timber.

Besides quality, Dates MUST be respected, you have all the rights to show your discommodity.
You are paying lots of money, and beforehand.

Claim your rights, I’m with you, also with responsible makers (which I know they are many!) and with buyers that paid for something they are still waiting.

All of this is called JUSTICE ppl.
Best of lucks Jessie!

Diego.

[Edited by Moderator]

JessieK, You can’t say you weren’t warned.
You knew who you were dealing with.
In that sense you should accept some of the blame.

i agree with this…
there are lot a posts about sam murray,and ‘his’ delivery time…
also, lot of posts about great sound of his flute …
so, everyone who want one of his flutes must take that facts in account…
depends, what you want, fast delivery, or flute for rest of your life…
someone of us, push makers with phone calls,birthday cards, xmac cards, e mails ,etc…
as harry said before ( search for older posts about sam), sam is man from past era, he didn’t work on principes of modern time… he don’t care too much about modern comunication technology and forums like this one also…
but, he is great maker.his flute have ‘something’.
maybe it isn’t apropriate, but, if you want to have good view we must climb on mt. everest.
but, it isn’t very easy to climb on it. someone will died on this climb, someone will maybe lost his arms, legs …
every alpinist, know that facts.
but every year around everest are thousands alpinist who want to climb on it.
but , alpinist who will reach the peak, will have most beautifull view to remember to the rest of my life… ( ok, i am member of mountain rescue service, and in my town of 200 000 people ,we have two peoples who reach a peak of everest, although we are situated in coast of adriatic sea )
in my case, i ordered his 6 keyed flute before 3 months ( he told me that delivery time will be 4 months!)
ok, i multiple ( in my head) that with 3,4 longer period, i paid him some money for start and that will be all from my side…
ok, maybe i am naive ( i could help myself, 'cause i am same in my life also..), but there will not be any calls ,cards from my side…
i have good flutes for play untill i will recieve sam flute ( lehart and plastic m&e) and good patience …
and i will focus myself on fact, that sooner or latter i will recieve flute, who will be with me untill rest of my life…! ( to much patetic?)
that’s my opinion, different from rest of you, but that’s me…
marin
p.s. i had very good experience in dealing with lehart and mr. cronnolly, but you know, everyone of us somethimes like to see ‘dark’ side of dealing…

just to add to my previous post…
i sent sam several e mails, but without any answer from his side…
i try to call him several times, but without any sucsess…
but i didn’t quit…
i tried again and again… and at the end i order his flute.
in my life i am mechanical engeener and i am very responsible with my customers, but, i take in account that sam is different …
and i think, that is all truth in this case…
marin

Had the delays been the only issue, I would not have felt compelled to post about the experience. I EXPECTED it to take longer than he promised. What I did NOT expect were the dishonesty (that he would embellish the flute, and then he did not), the lack of finishing (wood shavings in all holes), the ineffective padding, and the nastiness (there was more in that email from him that I have not mentioned here, having nothing to do with me, and he failed to address anything about the lack of finishing or the ineffective padding) when I got frustrated with his lack of response at the end of an arduous process. These things made me regret my choice to give him a chance despite warnings. We all make choices, some lead to regret. My posting about it here came from two things: my desire to protect others from such an experience, and my desire for some justice.

I disagree with anyone who says my post was inappropriate, and I would thank anyone else to post about such an experience. And, of course, you are all free to make up your own minds as to whether to take a chance on merchants who have a history of reported difficulty.

Posting this information can be a good thing, knowing the person who’s “on trial” can read this and reply too. Inappropriate would be to talk behind his back - we are not talking about some marketplace or a store chain - this is a one person business. Can you be 100% sure that with another customer he will behave the same way in the future? Should your experience with the maker be reffered to as how mr. Murray really is in reality? Building a name in the industry is a long process…
Of course I can understand that you are very angry, rightfully so too! Who wouldn’t be?

And the purpose? Public protection and justice you say. Both of which simply lead to less business with mr. Murray…?

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you, I hope you won’t take it the wrong way.
You’ve probably had a share of experience with flutemakers in the past and I’m sure you are a wonderful person too.

This is IMHO, maybe I’m wrong… ;/

I have no problem with the fact that you disagree with me. We are all entitled to our opinions. In fact, this dialog has been very civil.

By the way, I own and operate a small business that has been growing steadily for 12 years. I ALWAYS prefer to buy things from individuals rather than companies. I think we should choose those individuals with care, and we should have relevant information available to make these choices.

I chose to ignore warnings about Sam Murray. Had there been more of them, maybe I wouldn’t have ignored them.

A public forum is not operating behind anyone’s back. Sam is free to read and respond. Also, people are free to post good words about Sam, and they do. Generally his flutes get the good words, and his business methods, ‘no so much’.