StevieJ wrote:
Then you can worry about whether to start tonguing your rolls à la Séan Ryan & co. (I note with satisfaction that our good friend Mick Woodruff is exploring the joys of this kind of lingual exuberance! It certainly froths things up…)
I would like to discuss/ask about special rolls, like what kinds are there, and how to do them.
Mick has also explained to me how he achieved the frothy roll effect. Is this the same as the Sean Ryan rolls?
Hello Eldarion,
Have they discharged you already?
Crispy rolls: in his book “Hiberno-Asian Fusion Cuisine” Sean Ryan says that he deep-fries them in mustard oil for 25 seconds at 400 deg. F.
How does Mick do it?
Other special rolls: double-cut rolls. These are pretty straightforward with an ordinary breadknife, but a bagel-slicer makes things a lot safer.
Frothy rolls - maybe some kind of egg-soufflé batter with fine white bread flour?
Steve
On 2002-04-13 21:07, StevieJ wrote:
Hello Eldarion,Have they discharged you already?
Crispy rolls: in his book “Hiberno-Asian Fusion Cuisine” Sean Ryan says that he deep-fries them in mustard oil for 25 seconds at 400 deg. F.
How does Mick do it?
Other special rolls: double-cut rolls. These are pretty straightforward with an ordinary breadknife, but a bagel-slicer makes things a lot safer.
Frothy rolls - maybe some kind of egg-soufflé batter with fine white bread flour?
Steve
More recipies and cooking tips from our resident master chef?
Hey Eldarion, sorry for the flippant response. Must have been in a Saturday-night mood.
The thing is your question is a little tricky. You asked whether what Mick is doing (as in his clip of First House in Connaught, presumably) is the same as what Sean Ryan does, but without telling us what you have learned from Mick about how he does it. So without being intimately familiar with the workings of both these gentlemen’s mouths, I don’t how anyone could answer the question.
This sort of technique, as far as I can tell, is still used by only a minority of whistlers, and I think it’s probably something you have to figure out for yourself. Although someone posted on the board ages ago that Carmel Gunning covers it in her summer-school courses, calling it, apparently, a “chitter”.
I find I can get something resembling the the effect she, and Mick, and Laurence Nugent, produce by rather unscientifically lobbing a triple-tongue into an ordinary roll. It does sound quite impressive, although I’m really not sure I like it the effect that much.
Now as to whether anyone breaks this down so that the tonguing action falls at the same moment as any particular finger movement in the roll. I have no idea. That’s why I’d be interested to hear what Mick told you. Or to hear if anybody else out there can shed more light on the subject.
Out of all these players, I find whatever it is that Sean Ryan is doing sounds quite a bit more subtle, though. A trick of timing, no doubt. I think you should track him down and ask him!
Or, as I say, just experiment and see what you can come up with. You’ve got rolls down, you’ve got triple-tonguing down - now throw them into the blender and see what comes out.
Frothy rolls…
In my recording of The First House in Connaught, the rolls in the first part are, essentially, long rolls fitted into the space of a quarter note, with the first note tongued. So, the roll on the G is played, GAGF#G, with the first G tongued. I’m not sure if I’m unconsciously doing some subtle form of triple-tonguing or not whilst executing the roll; is it just me, or do other players have difficulty analysing the more subtle points of their playing? The process is almost unconscious, and it’s tricky for me to explain more precisely. However! Clear articulation of the first note of the roll is the main thing, along with good rhythm within the roll itself; it really gives the roll definition.
Mick
Mick,
When I heard your rolls on your latest recording, I thought that you were tonguig all the notes in the roll, but not with a heavy “tu ku”, or “tu tu ku”, but more with a tonguing that is like a “doodle”, or “doodle do”, with the tongue very much forward in the mouth, which I used to experiment with on my recorders, before ever playing a whistle. As for the subconscience aspect of tonguing fast passages, I will use this “doodle” type tonguing just because it cleans up some of the noise between notes with large intervals, but it is not something I think much about while doing it. JP
Hey Steve,
I kinda guessed some people wouldn’t be able to resist writing about rolls (of the edible variety) when I brought this topic up.
And nope they didn’t “discharge” me. My stay-in at the Police Academy should end come early September. After that I’ll be a policeman for 2 years more. In the meantime I shall have to make do with the weekend breaks when I’m allowed to come home.
I do practise double cut rolls on the flute because it gives a crispier treble effect that I can achieve with 3tongue for the time being. Right now I’m working on crans so I can treble on the Ds. Wish I could track down Sean Ryan and ask him about his trebles myself, but thats not very possible given my present circumstances. I’ll probably have to experiment 3tonguing and rolling simultaneously.
By the way I got the Tommy People’s CD you recommended. The way Peoples does his trebles is really really impressive. Also got Kevin Crehan’s CD, recommended my Peter Laban. It has the lovely stylistics of the old fiddlers without the hiss and crackle of the old masters’ poorly recorded playing. The fact that theres no accompaniment to the fiddle somehow intensified the listening experience and I enjoyed it immensely! Definitely worth checking out if you haven’t yet. Thanks Peter!