I’m another flute player/piper who finds himself in the thrall of fiddle players and their art. The phrasing, the incredibly subtle contrasts, all those great, earthy, double stops. Almost makes me wish I played the damn thing.
I find it ironic, though, that in terms of expression, flute players usually seem content to cede the contest entirely to the fiddle (or pipes) without much argument. In my opinion, out of all the instruments present in Irish music, no other instrument comes close in terms of potential expression to the flute. It’s got a healthy dynamic range and a multiplicity of ways to articulate individual notes. I don’t think there’s any other instrument, except for the fiddle, where the player has so much control over how to shape each note. However, the playing technique has evolved in such a way that, for better or for worse, many of these potential techniques are under-utilized or even actively discouraged.
I also think that among trad. musicians (but especially flute players), there’s a degree of self-effacement inherent in this sort of stuff. Lots of flute players, box players, and pipers tend to go nuts describing their love of the fiddle, but it’s also a two-way street. Think of all the fiddle players that talk about how they “love the pipes;” all the ones who do lots of piping imitation stuff and droning. Tommy Potts was known to insert breaks in his phrasing in an attempt to emulate the sound of a flute player taking a breath. Perhaps what it comes down to is that a lot of musicians aren’t really happy with the instrument that they play, or at least they like to say so a lot (ex. Tony MacMahon). I suppose the only way to be really happy would be to be a great player of all three instruments (and there are a few people out there that are…clever bastards). But if you were ever to accomplish such a thing, you might start to find yourself inexplicably drawn to accordion music.
I’m not sure I’d agree that players of different instruments aren’t happy with the sound of their instruments so much as that they appreciate the nuances that other instruments add to the music. The flute’s playing and breath stops add a wonderful extra dimension to the timing. Its almost an ornament in itself. Same with piping. The ornaments are unique enough that a fiddler or flautist would want to capture those unique effects in their own playing. And many fiddle versions of tunes are much richer in their choice of notes over piping versions, where sometimes piping ornaments tend to oversimplify the tune, so that a piper might want to add some of the fiddler’s choices in the way a tune is played. Each instrument’s capabilities are like different facets of the whole, and copying those effects to another instrument just makes that other instrument’s repertoire that much richer.
This is my feeling too.
That’s why my post on the utility of techniques from “another tradition”
for the purposes of ITM to realise that “potential” as you say.
But apparently I “missed the point”.
Anyway, as I am not one who prefers the Irish fiddle over the Irish flute
I’m outa here FTTB.That is to say, ITM flute playing,
even the way it is, with its purported limitations,
is not surpassed for me.
One a honey bee, the other a lark.
Right on.
The heart of any piece of music
is the unique secret of its silence.
To think the flautist may evince it
by virtue of his or her very breath.
I must have missed that because I never followed that long thread too much but yes, unfortunately that was me indeed. On the subject of borrowing from other traditions, yes its nice to bring in new techniques and what not. But the kinda rhythm great Irish musicians use is something really fundamental and unique. Because of this it (good nuanced rhythm) is not something you’ll get from picking from outside the tradition. You might get an interesting mix from fusing this and that but it generally does little for the rhythm - a fundamental element of the music in question.
I’m particularly interested in Irish musicians that have a relaxed way about their playing and yet maintain a really dynamic, nuanced rhythm - a lot of potential energy going on if you get my anology. For some reason I still think its more common to find that in fiddlers/pipers/concertina/box players. As a flute player myself it makes me wonder why.
Being both a fiddle player and a flute player, I feel qualified to voice an opinion. They definitely both have their own unique qualtities, but I definitely feel the fiddle offers more opportunities for subtlety. There are many little tricks that can ad a lot of depth to the music that can be done on the fiddle. The other advantage is the sympathetic string effect. This happens with any instrument tuned in fifths, as the fiddle is, and instruments with courses of strings. It’s an ever so sublte vibration of ajacent strings that are not being played. I’m not sure about the scientific explanation for it, but it’s not common with all stringed instruments. It’s subtle, but it definitely adds a lot.
No, of course you cant get the uniqueness of a tradition
by cutting and pasting from another tradition.
You mustn’t have understood my posts.
My point is, if the Irish fiddlers’ subtlety (your claim)
cannot be matched by the Irish flautists
while a flautist from another tradition can match it
then how much more potential there is
for the Irish flautist to match it
with the advantage of utilising techniques from the other tradition
(NB technique does not = music)
Irish fluting did not arise in a vacuum .
Since ancient times, there has been a pan Eurasian
simple finger fluting system spanning from County Kerry
to Vietnam.
Perhaps it is unfortunate for you
but not for me.
Stop fiddling with the truth.
You are a beautiful flute player
and you know it.
In pieces that you play
try and hear the music that rises
despite your personal limitations.
I dont quite get this. So this flautist from another tradition can play good Irish music? Its one thing to be a good flute player and another thing to be a good Irish musician with great rhythm.
then how much more potential there is
for the Irish flautist to match it
with the advantage of utilising techniques from the other tradition
(NB technique does not = music)
I don’t think the state of affairs is as so because Irish fluting has an insufficient range of techniques. I’d imagine its due to a relatively lesser emphasis on rhythm, rhythmic nuances and subtleties compared to fiddlers or pipers. The advent of Bothy bandish styled playing didn’t do wonders for the popularising of rhythmic nuances either I dont think.
I love Indian music, and am the first to expound its beauty and sophistication and the incredible artistry of its performers. Would anyone here disagree? No.
So I’d politely ask you to get off your high horse and stop dragging the Indian flute tradition so predictably, provocatively and may I say superciliously into all these threads. In nearly every case it adds nothing to the discussion except a dose of smart-aleckism and we have enough of that around here anyway.
You might also consider posting a clip of yourself playing some Irish music, so that we can judge whether you have any idea of what the feck, frig or shag you’re talking about in these discussions. Until you do, I shall presume that you don’t (i.e. know what the… etc.)
I think you have to separate the question of whether the flute, as an instrument in the hands of a good player, is capable of subtlety and emotional depth from the question of whether Irish traditional flute playing can match the subtlety and depth of Irish traditional fiddling.
Sure, the flute is capable of subtlety and depth. It’s possible to play an Irish dance tune on the flute with subtlety, dynamic range, etc., and it might sound really nice, but it probably also won’t sound very Irish. I think the Irish flute tradition has tended to value other qualities, a certain rawness, a lack of overrefinement. The beauty comes through, but it’s a very different kind of beauty than you hear in the playing of, say, Hariprasad Chaurasian.
I can listen to Sonny McDonough and say, “god, that’s lovely flute playing,” but it’s not something that’s going to be universally lovely to the untrained ear, the way it might be if someone like James Galway played the same tune. But it’s lovely for what it is and what it expresses, and it’s lovely within the context of its tradition.
Musicians who are used to playing in other genres like jazz or classical sometimes come to Irish music and try to “improve” it by adding their techniques or even altering the melody to make it more “interesting.” But that’s just crass, it’s like walking into a tea ceremony with an espresso machine and saying, “here, try this, you’ll get a better buzz.”
This is right on also.
This is exactly the the issue I am plying and it isn’t esoteric.
“The Irish flute tradition has tended to value other qualities,
a ceratin rawness, a lack of overrefinement”.
Yes, I love this for what it is BUT it seems that some of
YOU find a deficit in this to the extent that you
would “superciliosly” compare this with Irish fiddling
with a view to establishing the Irish fluting’s inferiority!!!
So my point is, if you feel that way about it
you may as well go to another tradition’s fluting approaches to bolster the Irish fluting’s competitiveness.
I, on the other hand, see no need for such competition or comparison.
This is why I have, on RECORD here, agreed with many posters in this topic.
Sorry, Tal, but I find your agreeing with so many other points on this thread disagreeable. If you persist on agreeing with everybody I’m afraid we must agree to disagree … I guess …
But Eldarion’s original question was “I was wondering if there are any flute players who can match/rival the rhythmic groove/subtlety and musicality of the great fiddlers?” And since he was talking about Irish fiddlers, I assumed he was also referring to Irish flute players. And so my answer was (and remains) no, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
Brad, here is the whole of the first post by the person who started
this topic:-
Eldarion already has an opinion. (Incidentally, therefore, his or her question may be coloured.)
The question is whether any flute player can match or rival the Irish fiddlers’ way of playing ITM. (It is not asking whether the Irsih fluting in its own way can match the music played by the fiddlers BUT whether the fluting can match it by doing it the fiddlers’ way)
Prima facie, its a absurd question because the flute and the fiddle
are vastly different instruments and each must achieve the necessary musicality in terms of its intrinsic nature. It implies another absurd question(the one I suggested): whether the fiddlers can do on their fiddles what the flautists do on their flutes in the way that it is done on the flute?
The questions are not so stupid if the reference for both instruments is phenomenon independent of them. Therefore to salvage these propositions from absolute inanity I raised the apparently “provocative” spectre of another tradition in which all instrumental virtuosity
(fiddles and flutes included) are tested against a human vocal standard.
This tradition gives NO CHOICE to its instrumentalists - as a bottom line
they must be able to emulate the human voice in a tradition where the voice
achieves a highly complex level of rhythmic and melodic subtlety.
Therefore there is a common platform to develop towards that the tradition accepts as a standard.
If ITM does not have such a common beholden platform for its
instrumentalists, then the question of parity between two instruments in that tradition is problematic, if not totally absurd.
That the ITM flautists CHOOSE to play their flutes without regard to any
model outside the flute itself would indicate there is no such BEHOLDEN standard. Most of the posts here (including Eldarion’s) have directly or impliedly said
that ITM flautists play how they do because they CHOOSE to.
