Gordon, either you have just insulted a great number of people, myself included, or your vision is not what you think it is. Would you care to back this up?
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but my view is that there is no such thing as a fixed tradition in roots/folk music.
What we get in the ITM scene is a sort of synthesized fixed style which is not representative of the breadth of the music that is handed down and revised as time goes on. It seems to be driven by a looking back at a golden age possibly of ancestors who emigrated and trying to connect with that.
For example, Irish music includes things like lambeg drumming and flute bands. The music we think of as ITM is southern Irish.
In Scottish music many of our traditional tunes have changed considerably over time and the instrumentation used varies hugely from one part of the country to another. I would argue that Five Hand Reel (if anyone knows of them) were playing traditional music just as much as Ally Bain and Phil Cunningham, even though both are totally different. However, we are heading down the synthesized route in Scoatland as well now that we have courses in “traditional” music at music colleges with very fixed style requirements.
Malloy was the first to bring in uillean piping techniques such as crans to the fluting tradition.
Who’s Malloy? ![]()
Matt Molloy wasn’t the first to use cranns or “hard Ds” two of the so-called uilleann pipe techniques attributed to him. It’s been discussed here before. I think one example of an earlier honker is Ed Maloney. Find him here flute geezers – rich text
Speaking of tonguing with impunity … and as long as it was just mentioned in another thread …
Check out this clip of Donncha O’Briain, courtesy of Nico Moreno:
http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~nlbrown/Cl … Briain.mp3
As Kenny pointed out when this clip was presented to refute CWM’s assertation that any tonguing in whistle playing automatically makes it untraditional, Donncha actually doesn’t tongue at all, but uses a gutteral stop like most flute players would.
Conal O Grada’s CD is really the only one I’ve come across where you can hear a current living player who plays in the older manner. Another player who did the older strongly rythmic pulsing breath-driven style is Michael Tubridy.
Well, it’s an older manner, but certainly not the only one. Maybe you’re mistaking Morrison’s and McKenna’s Sligo/Leitrim style as the only traditional one? Don’t forget about all those other old flute players, like Peadar O’Loughlin, who’s style couldn’t be considered a “new manner”.
As far as the breath pulse thing goes, I would think Harry Bradley would be a more well-known example of this style of playing. Harry Bradley takes much of his playing from John McKenna’s and Tom Morrison’s playing, and on his albums you’ll find many of their sets and tunes. But there’s a whole school of Belfast flute players that play with quite a bit of breath pulse. My personal favourite is Hammy Hamilton, who uses the technique to emulate the Kerry fiddling very well.
As Kenny pointed out when this clip was presented to refute CWM’s assertation that any tonguing in whistle playing automatically makes it untraditional, Donncha actually doesn’t tongue at all, but uses a gutteral stop like most flute players would.
Oral cavity articulated, then.
With only occasional punity.
I know I know, splitting hairs almost ![]()
It certainly achieves the same effect as tonguing. Interestingly, my girlfriend plays that way, too. When that other thread came up, she commented that she doesn’t tongue either. Surprised me some!
Anyway it’s still amazing whistle playing, and everybody should listen to him intently I think!
NicoMoreno
As Kenny pointed out when this clip was presented to refute > CWM’s assertation > that any tonguing in whistle playing automatically makes it untraditional,
I think you need to check your facts there mate. Where exactly do I assert this?
Well, the bulk of your posts make it clear that you think tonguing is awful and you repeatedly reference “old players” to back up your opinion. Easy enough to make the extrapolation that you think it’s not traditional… Sorry if I misunderstood!
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=tonguing&author=ceili_whistle_man&start=15
I should also correct my earlier assertation. It was Tommy Martin, not Kenny that clarified the bit about how he (Donncha) creates the staccato effect:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/planxty-me/77/1
NicoMoreno, it seems to be a common misunderstanding when I speak out against the tyranny of the tonguers out there that I don’t think tonguing is traditional. ![]()
I may, as you say, think that tonguing is awful, but it is the folk who use too much of it that really grate on my teeth and makes it awful. I don’t argue against it being traditional, it is just another way of articulating notes in a tune, I just hate hearing too much of it in anyones playing. I have no problem with subtle tonguing, but when I’m in a session and I hear the Brian Finnegan wannabe’s fire up…I’m out of there.
On the whistle it’s not necessarily a matter of how much tonguing is done, but rather of how the tonguing is used.
In other words, just counting up the number of instances the tongue is used might lead to a misleading result, and it’s possible (though unllikely) to have Whistle Player A sound traditional but at the same time doing more tonguing than Whistle Player B.
How I’ve come to view the “classical” (legit, orchestral, Baroque, what have you) approach to articulation is that each note is a valued entity in its own right with a clearly defined beginning/attack, core, and end/decay. “Classical” players will endeavour, using every bit of skill they have, to keep each note as flawless as possible regardless of the tempo required, so that even with confronted with an Irish reel will try to make each note a seperate pearlesent perfect embodiment of beauty.
When a “classical” fluteplayer comes to playing Irish flute it’s difficult to get them to throw notes away, to recklessly charge over them, to look upon the individual notes as not the end product but only the means to the end. Indeed we Irish fluteplayers leave out notes altogether when we need to take a breath, or to change the pitch of any note we feel like at any time, or to play any note an octave up or down or to play in between the octaves or to making honking sounds.
With Irish flute it’s about “the flow” and the notes pour forth in a stream given pulse by the diaphragm.
And with the high whistle, even if quite a bit of tonguing is used it does not ruin the flow, but in a way is a substitute for the diaphragm action that works so well on the flute but doesn’t work on the high whistle.
With Irish flute it’s about “the flow” and the notes pour forth in a stream given pulse by the diaphragm.
Yes, one of the best pieces of whistle playing advice I ever got was simply: “Keep it going!”
In other words: Whether you use a lot of articulation or a little, long breaths or short, lots of ornamention or not … try not to let your playing break (or brake) the forward momentum of the tune.
That’s not to say to play sloppily. But focusing too much on individual notes - not to mention articulating every note - can certainly get in the way. Especially if you’re used to thinking of individual notes as discrete entities on a page.
This is also why it’s sometimes possible to glom whole chunks of melody notes into rolls and crans and other “suspended” ornaments and variations, as long as you keep pushing the pulse along.