Flute Ornaments from a Fiddler’s Perspective

Irish Flute
1

I’m an Irish fiddler who has recently taken up flute. It could be just the folks I’ve spoken to, but there seems to be a very different approach, in a rhythmic sense, to flute ornamentation than to fiddle ornamentation. The first bar of Silver Spear comes to mind. On fiddle, I’d approach it this way:

FA (3AAA BAFA

My thought for flute was to replace the triplet with an A roll:

FA~A2BAFA

To do that though I’d have to either tongue to start the roll or cut between the first A and the A that starts the roll. This comes out to be an uneven quintuplet where the final A is a little longer than the four notes it follows.

What I’m finding the flute players around here are doing is this:

FAAABAFA

The eighth notes are absolutely even and the second A is cut from above and the third is cut from below. They call it a roll but it’s rhythmically different from what I’ve always thought of a roll.

Is this the more common flute approach? Is my way ever done? And if so, tongue or cut to start the roll?

While I’m asking questions, there seems to be two approaches (probably more) of the mechanics of cuts and rolls. The first is cutting from the note above or below. The second is using the index finger, so for example for a cut on a G you would quickly lift and put back your left index finger. For a roll on G it would go G lift and replace left index finger F G. Do I have these two approaches right? Is one much more common? Do people sometimes use one and sometimes the other?

Finally, if anyone has advice for a fiddler getting into flute, I’d love to hear.

Thanks so much,

Clayton

2

You could also use a glottal stop, which – IMO – feels less obtrusive than tonguing.

3

what i do there is to keep the first A for a little longer and then cut it up and down… i think is like the last example you made, and i belive is the most common approach. the first one sounds unnatural and uncomfortable to me…

i never cut with the left index finger (i do that only when i cut the B), but i cut a lot with the left ring finger when playing lower notes like E and F (you roll this notes cutting G and tapping the lower note, so it comes natural to cut that way). i belive that is the most common approach.

good luck!
Lorenzo

4

I think my first bit of advice would be to find a flute teacher and get a couple introductory lessons. There should be a good batch to pick from on your side of the country! If you’ve managed to win the flute player lottery and aren’t having problems with tone production and/or breath control, congratulations! Starting off, this aspect of flute playing tends to be a bigger problem than ornamentation for many of the beginning flute students that I see.

Keep in mind that there are a number of ways to play that opening phrase of Silver Spear. The roll flute players in your parts use is often described as a “long roll” and works perfectly well. The roll you describe as a fiddle roll might be described as “short condensed roll” or some such in Grey Larsen’s tome, but it’s equally as doable on flute.

I often don’t even put a roll in that phrase and just play it: FAAF BAFA

As for cuts, I tend to use the index finger of the top hand to cut for G, A, and B, although sometimes I used the ring finger of the top hand to cut G. For E and F, I use the ring finger of the top hand (using top hand instead of left hand so as to not confuse any lefty players out there!). I think all the teachers that I’ve had have taught cuts this way.

Another suggestion would be to get a big batch of flute player CDs/tapes/albums and have a listen. Old stuff, new stuff, whatever you can get your hands on. I think the end goal is that you want to sound like a flute player, not necessarily a fiddle player playing flute :wink:

5

The answer is “yes” :smiley:

Regarding “which fingers to use for a roll”, I don’t think there really are any “rules”, so long as your choice allows you to play the roll so crisply that the grace notes are not perceived as individual notes. A roll is first and foremost a rhythmic device, not a melodic one. For example, if I roll a B in a Gmaj tune, I wouldn’t bother to cut with a Cnat, which is almost impossible to do without keys, and cut to a C# instead.

That being said, melodic considerations may play a role: If I roll an F#, I would generally cut with the left ring finger, which isn’t really a defined note, but I think it sounds better than cutting to a G, which is only a half-step above the F# and may not produce enough contrast to the main note:

xxx xoo
xxo xoo
xxx xoo
xxx xxo
xxx xoo


Or when rolling a G, I would frequently tap with two fingers of the right hand to produce an E, because F# can sound out of place in tunes with a “modal” feel:

xxx ooo
xxo ooo (oxx ooo is a Cnat on my flute and can sound nice too)
xxx ooo
xxx xxo
xxx ooo

6

Thanks for the responses. I’ve got a degree in clarinet so the breath support isn’t an issue at all and my lips are getting into shape pretty quickly too. Getting rid of vibratto seems to be my biggest tonal challenge.

I’ve got calls in to two well known teachers. So hopefully in the next week or so I’ll be able to get a lesson in.

Dr Funkenstein, I’ll try that with the cuts. Thanks.

Othannen, I’ve tried your opening to Silver Spear too and I’ve been using it a bit, but it’s different from what two locals had suggested. That difference being that the 8ths are very steady.

7

Segv, Thanks. I’ve always approached rolls as percussive on the fiddle. I like the G roll with the E fingering too, it sounds great.

8

Good observation, IBPF (forgive the abbreviation, but I’m a spud)! This is one of those things I’ve been thinking about since John Skelton told me at my first lesson years ago that I’d obviously learned all my ornamentation from fiddlers. :blush: But what’s a gal to do when that’s all she’s got?

Anyway, since then, I’ve spent a lot of time listening and thinking/asking about roll rhythms, and I’ve noticed different flute players doing different things in that department (especially as the land of multiple A’s is somewhat fraught with peril; tried Sheila Coyle’s yet :laughing:?) – but that nice, even, “pipery” FAAA approach is probably more standard than most; that or the F+perfectly-evenly-spaced A-roll combo F’A"A’A). In flute playing rolls can serve as lovely workarounds for trappy fingered passages. Me, I think I generally cut or tip into the F and then use a sort of “tappy” A roll, using my left index finger to make the cut on A (it just seems easier for my hands). I sometimes tongue or glottal stop the third A if I can do it in time; sometimes I’ll cut into the B in the next set of notes.

(sneaky tip, BTW – this does depend on your flute and how fast you’re going – but in some cases it’s possible to leave your right-hand index finger down until you get to the D, i.e. FAAA BAFA d(etc). It’s just one less thing to think about since your left hand’s so busy at that point)

Of course, I hear flute players play it with the “fiddly triplet,” too, especially on this very fiddly tune. I don’t have it here to listen to, but I think Skip Healy’s version on Wooden Flute Obsession 1 is that way. And of course you know that it’s a matter of what works best with the majority … :slight_smile: If you’ve got a bunch of fiddle players doing the triplet roll, don’t fight it. It’s one thing on the pipes, and it’s one thing when you’re playing by yourself, but a lot of times (at least in my experience), those evenly spaced rolls can sound out of phase unless everyone’s doing them (and the fiddle players I play with just refuse to try)

OK, FINAL SNEAKY TIP that I got from Louise Mulcahy (again, only if it fits) … don’t worry about it at all, just roll the F instead, ala … ~F3 A – it’s either a fun variation or, if you’re in a zoo session and it doesn’t matter, a nice crutch. It’s a really fun variation when you use it at the beginning of the B part.

Anyway, good luck. The more you listen the more you’ll realize that there are lots of different ways to skin this cat – as long as it’s in rhythm, in good taste, and serves the tune do whatever works best for you!

9

The main advice I’d give to a fiddle player trying to make the switch to flute would be this: Don’t take the approach of trying to transfer your fiddle repertoire and technique (ornamentation, phrasing, etc) lock, stock and barrel over to the flute. Instead, even if you know the tune already on the fiddle, look at it from the perspective of the flute. Figure out how to phrase the tune (i.e. where to breathe) first. Then figure out several alternatives to your breathing points so you can vary the phrasing from one time through to the next. If you’re creative, come up with a few melodic variations here or there to add interest to the tune. The phrasing of the tune and the key it’s in will then make obvious the spots where you need some sort of ornamentation - and you will definitely find here that there is not a one-to-one transfer from where and how you would ornament the same tune in a fiddle setting. Once you find the spots where an ornament is needed (and there need not be all that many of them) then you can figure out which ornamental technique (e.g. roll, cran, glottal triplet, whatever) will work best for you for that particular note at that particular point in the tune. There may be some tunes where a B or an A roll is manageable and sounds good, and others where it doesn’t, even if your technique is excellent. To paraphrase a quote I read once from the great Matt Molloy, there are some times you hit the cran spot on, and other times you don’t. What that says to me is that even the best players don’t have flawless technique. What they do have is the ability to make it sound good whether they hit the cran or the roll or whatever spot on or not. Learn how to make a tune sound good on the flute before you even start adding the ornamentation to it.

You really need to develop a flute mindset rather than a fiddle mindset if you ever hope to sound like you know how to play the flute. Some tunes lend themselves easily to a flute mindset (pretty much any tune in G, for instance), and others don’t. The Silver Spear for instance is a tune that I never cared for much as a flute player. Not that it’s hard to play, more so just that it’s boring on the flute. Then one of the other flute players in my local session started playing in down a step, putting it in C rather than D. This really made it into a much nicer tune IMHO. Mellowed it out, slowed it down a bit, forced a different emphasis in phrasing. And C is not exactly the easiest key on the flute, either. I think what happened there is that we were forced by the change in key to rethink how we approached what was up until then a very familiar tune. This is the approach I would suggest you take with your entire repertoire. Rethink it from a flute mindset, one tune at a time.

10

First: John, there are no boring tunes. Only boring musicians.

Second: there are plenty of fiddlers who also flute on this board, and fluters who fiddle. I played fiddle for years before starting the flute. Rob Sharer is another. Just play the flute, listen carefully to great fluters (read what Eamonn Cotter says about ornaments on Brad Hurley’s site http://www.firescribble.net/flute/cotter.html) and the ornaments will come.

I think of ornaments as rhythmic rather than melodic. But it’s a delight to be able to ornament the A with a roll rather than a bowed triplet. Catherine McEvoy often holds a roll long enough to have it stand in for a following note or two (as in The Highest Hill in Sligo).

I never tongue. Unless by accident. Plenty of fluters do but none who I play with.

I hope you post a clip. It’ll be fun to hear how another fiddler approaches the flute.

11

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful posts. I’ll see about putting a clip up if I get the courage.

Obviously some of the tunes I’m learning I already new on the fiddle but I’m trying to learn some from scratch on the flute too. Some tunes just hit me as flutey. Butler’s of Glenn Avenue & Kid on the Mountain are two that I’m having a blast with.

I just got the flute so don’t have a lot to spend on CDs. I’m really enjoying Seamus Eagan, Jimmy Noonan, and Shannon Heaton and I’m thinking that my next purchase might be Grey Larson or Skip Healy.

12

Might be a good idea to get some indigenous Irish players. Just a thought…

(Sorry Seamus)

13

Ditto cocus. Irish players I both enjoy and find pretty accessible to the learning-oriented ear include Paul Smyth, Dave Sheridan, Catherine McEvoy, Marcas O Murchu, and John Wynne. For slightly more Northern/lively/punchy flavor but still a fairly easy way with a tune I enjoy Michael Clarkson, Larry Nugent (though he’s borderline mind-boggling), and I’m most eagerly awaiting the arrival of my Paul McGlinchey CD.

I also enjoy Eamonn Cotter and adore Louise Mulcahy, who was Eamonn’s student.

And for a REALLY nice recording of The Silver Spear by a band, consider Grianán (Siobhan Peoples on fiddle (LOVE HER) and Kevin Crawford on flute). Those two have it worked out and it’s about as elegant as the tune gets in my book.

Anyway, the CD’s called “The Maid of Erin,” and it’s hard to find, but it shows up on Amazon from time to time and as you can see from my review there, I think everyone should own it. :slight_smile:

http://www.amazon.com/Maid-Eirin-Grianan/dp/B000TH8R5Y/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1212535598&sr=8-3

Finally, of course, Frankie Gavin’s a genius on the flute, too – not a bad crossover guy to listen to at all! “Up and Away” is his mostly flute CD.

Good luck, and have fun!

14

BTW, to what john said … Grianán play The Silver Spear in C and a bit slower as well. It’s gorgeous. I think because it’s a fiddly tune and is often an “early” one for many people (plus it’s just plain good feis/dance material), it tends to be sped up and flattened out by normal “youthful” enthusiasm.

Anyway, it really is nice one – that’s part of why it’s so popular all these years! – especially when you experiment with various roll rhythms, emphasizing other aspects of internal rhythm, with other keys or tempos, etc. as john mentions.

15

You aren’t really Peter Fonda, are you?

At any rate, the list of Ireland flute players to check out is just far too long, but I’ll throw out a couple more must hears: Colm O’Donnell and Harry Bradley (“The Night Rambler’s Companion” rules!) and of course there are all the “Geezers” to whom we all should be listening to.


Loren

16

in that tune, i usually play F3A BAFA, and sometimes roll the F3. i got this from a fiddler, brian rooney. he does not do it every time through, of course, but in my opinoin, it is the bread and butter of his version! in fact, in most tunes, in that combination, i usually do it as F3A instead of FAA2

people debate whether or not to tongue it or put a long roll in it’s place–some say it ruins the rhythm to put a long roll instead, i say both are good. technically i am ruining the rhythm by putting an F3 there, but then again, so does brian rooney! and nobody can accuse that man of having bad rhythm…

when i play, sometimes i play F3A, sometimes FA3sometimes FAA2, sometimes FAAA; my grandma and her cousin both play the fiddle, and i grew up hearing a lot triplets. instead of triplets or rolls, i will often tongue 3 notes or 2, as in the later part: g2ge f2fd, rolling nothing. i often glottal tongue, but sometimes i do not. sometimes in that tune, i play the B2A2 really hard, and really staccato, as that is how mrs. crotty played it on the concertina, in county clare.

17

Can’t accuse Louise of bad rhythm, either :slight_smile:

18

Here’s my take on it:

The way you’ve written it, you’re technically playing a “short roll” after the FA, and you do that exactly as you describe it (without the tongue, though). The short roll is ~A2 or {cut}A{tap}A. I don’t follow you about “an uneven quintuplet where the final A is a little longer than the four notes it follows.” The cut and tap are not considered notes. They are rhythmic tools that assist in creating the sound you’re looking for. There’s a variation ~F3A BAFA. That would be a long roll: three eighth notes as opposed to the two eighth notes in a short roll. It is with the long roll that flute players will play that first eighth note a bit longer than an eighth note and follow it with the cut and tap. Putting short or long aside, the two rolls above differ in how they sound because of the placement in the measure. If you try to put a long roll in the first example (F~A3 BAFA) with the extended first note (~A3) or A{cut}A{tap}A. It just doesn’t fit.

I’m sure I confused you even more now, but there’s an exercise that I’m planning to post that was given to me early on that helped me with rolls.

Michael

19

Silver Spear is one of those tunes I’ve never deliberately learnt a"proper" version of, just acquired at sessions, and I therefore only play it if someone else starts it (usually without knowing what it’s called!). FWIW, I have it as FA (3AAA BA (3AAA | etc., which could just as well be written FA ~A2 BA ~A2 | etc. I play the rolled A crotchet/triplet by very lightly tonguing after the FA and then doing a full roll on the crotchet A within it’s allotted time - which is my usual approach to similar contexts - I view it as one of the places that tonguing is more-or-less necessary in ITM on flute and whistle - and it what I would view as a “short roll” - the whole note-cut-note-tap-note sequence of a roll, but with a different rhythmic emphasis and effect to that of a “long” roll (one goes into the roll directly at the beginning of the available time in the “short” version and the elements are pretty evenly spaced through it, whereas in a “long” roll there is a fair part of the available time given to the core note initially, thus emphasising the downbeat, and the cut-note-tap-note part of the roll are compressed towards the end of the time-slot) - and it also has a subtly different effect from the cut-note-tap-note “short” roll sequence described/advocated by others above, in that the latter has a down-beat emphasis on the cut, rather than the core note whereas “my” version has it on the note itself marked by the tongue. One could of course utilise both at different times as a subtle means of varying one’s interpretation. My light tongueing could equally well be “glottal” stopped.