Getting back to hatao’s enquiry regarding the tonal characteristics of various hardwood timbers, I can honestly say as someone alluded to earlier on this thread, the only one timber that I’ve noticed to have any real tonal difference is that on the worn and more absorbent bore of ancient boxwood flutes. They literally suck up so much moisture over a prolonged period of play that you can feel the weight of the instrument increase in your hand. This, to my mind, may be one reason for the softer more muted tones often ascribed to these particular flutes. That said, I’m sure the diminished embouchure and tone hole size, coupled with the wide bore are also factors to consider when hearing the overall sound.
I must be lucky.
I have a John Gallagher boxwood flute and have also had boxwood flutes from Casey Burns and Terry McGee. None of them ever warped at all. None of my Blackwood flutes have ever cracked either, nor my clarinets from the 1950’s.
Have several boxwood flutes, (one is at least 20 years old) had the other two for a fair amount of time. One is made by Casey Burns and is my favorite. Never had any bow or warp, or whatever in any of them. I live in a cold climate with low humidity in the winter, and it’s very hot and dry in the summer and I take precautions to keep them properly oiled and humidified, as much as is possible. I have an old blackwood flute that I keep in the same conditions and it has a slight bow–go figure (it wasn’t bowed when I bought it). I keep the humidity at 40% for all of my flutes, except for the ebonite and delrin, of course.
With regard to the wood itself, I really doubt it makes much difference in tone. I do think that the way in which the flute is made does and also the individual playing the flute. In my own mind, when I’m playing, I do think the boxwood sounds more mellow, or if you will “honey like,” but I’m pretty sure no one else can hear it. I’ve never experienced an increased weight after playing for a long time with my boxwood flutes and I can’t detect any shifting of shape either. Now, Casey Burns does say in his instruction/care paper that came with my flute that it isn’t uncommon for boxwood flutes to bow and is almost expected to some degree. I don’t wish to disagree with a man I so highly respect; I just haven’t experienced it to this point in time.
I have several sets of bagpipes, two made of blackwood–no warps, bows or cracks ever. I have one made of ebony and I personally would recommend not having pipes or flutes made of ebony. I’ve experience a bow in one of the drones and also some cracking. I might add that I take the same precautions with my pipes as I do with the flutes.
Thanks everyone for all of the comments. This is really interesting.
Sirchronique
There was a study done once with Boehm flutes of different materials, and, if I recall correctly, none of the participants could tell the difference.
Yes, that’s what I read about. But I still want to stick on timber than synthetic materials.
paddler
most people would agree that it is far from being the dominant factor
Yes, I also agree.
I think wood type makes much more difference to the flute maker than to the player or the audience.
That’s interesting point of view. And I agree with the rest of your comments.
accordionstu
Boxwood flutes produce a warmer, sweeter sound than the Blackwood flutes
blackwood flutes and find that they do produce a more consistent tone, louder and better for noisy sessions.
Somehow I also feel so.
This may be related to the lack of care that bandsmen take with their flutes
and Boxwood being more expensive and more unstable than blackwood.
That’s the good point, yes.
TWO TOOTS
Availability, Density, Durability, Stability, Cost and Appearance are large factors when choosing wood for flute construction.
Right, I’ve never thought like that but this is also a good point.
Maybe I will add this on my book.
bradhurley
Hello Brad!! That’s a compliment, thanks.
Congratulation for the new design of your web site!! That’s so beautiful.
And thank you for telling me about the detailed information of the experiment.
I’m skeptical.
Me too.
So why don’t we do the same kind of experiment on the Irish flute by same maker? LOL.
most of a flute’s tone quality comes from the head joint and the cut of the embouchure.
Yes, I also have read this. And this makes sense to me.
I need go back to my tax work (I am overwhelmed by tons of papers!! ) and reply rest of comments later.
I just recorded some tunes on Hamilton piccolo as a test, by the way.
https://soundcloud.com/tomoaki-hatakeyama/hamilton-piccolo-test
Talk to you later.
psychodonald wrote; " Have several boxwood flutes, (one is at least 20 years old) had the other two for a fair amount of time."
" I’ve never experienced an increased weight after playing for a long time with my boxwood flutes…"
This all hinges on your definition of " ancient. " The boxwood flutes I am playing are in the order of 200 years old, and the bores of these instruments have been eroded and worn to the point that they become open pored and absorbent. Oddly enough, this is not apparent with flutes I have of a similar age made from ebony and cocus. Boxwood, being less dense than either of these, is less durable, and the outer surface of the internal bore at least, becomes susceptible to this phenomenon, and as a result increase in weight. Give it another 180 years 
I’ve never seen two identical flutes from the same maker. They may look identical (same design, same wood, etc.), but there are always subtle differences in the sound. I remember we had this discussion on the forum some years back and Terry McGee figured it would be possible for a maker to make two perfectly identical flutes; I can’t remember the details but maybe it could be done if they set up jigs to shape the embouchure hole and tonehole undercutting in exactly the same way. I think all makers normally do some hand work on their flutes which introduces variables.
I switched headjoints on my C flute yesterday, and everyone remarked on the difference in tone. It wasn’t just evident to me: the flute had a much more penetrating, darker sound than it had with the other headjoint. And my past experiment of using the same headjoint on different bodies (which made them all sound very similar but with subtle differences) reinforces the notion that the headjoint is the biggest determining factor in the sound.
I think paddler summed it up well in his first post.
As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’ve made a wide variety of flutes from a wide variety of woods–everything from soft cedar (depending upon the flute type) to dense oily woods like blackwood, cocobolo, vera wood, lignum vitae, bois de rose, etc.. (though I’ve never actually used boxwood, funnily enough). It’s simple enough to remove the wood itself from the equation by simply finishing the bore with a hard, waterproof finish. Oil doesn’t really seal the wood permanently or completely, and this is especially true of open grain woods or soft woods. I finish my bores with clear coat marine epoxy and it is the great equalizer.
If the bore is smooth and glassy and has no open pores as a result of the finish, you no longer hear the wood. You just hear the bore shape and other factors (embouchure cut, finger holes, etc.)
I was asked in an interview recently “what is your favorite wood for flute making?” and I said “Delrin!”.
Wood is beautiful, organic and unique, and it does have “soul” for lack of a better term, and I think players connect with that. Even if it is just a feeling or an idea, that’s valid. But as a maker, materials like Delrin are great because they have awesome properties for woodwinds: dense, glassy smooth, highly machinable and totally stable. I know that many players don’t like plastic, and I get it. However, when you are trying to replicate a design there is nothing easier to work with than Delrin, IMO. In fact, if it is finished correctly it can look so much like blackwood that players can’t tell it’s plastic (this actually happened with one of my flutes recently).
There is an older thread on this subject that is fairly epic: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/mcgoldrick-mcsherry-new-album/91/1
Here is an opinion from my friend Andy Xu, who started making flutes in Beijing.
"So back to the question of timber, as I was major in physics in the university, I have some knowledge about the acoustic.
In my opinion, the most important thing is about energy transfer, the embouchure is the source of the energy and it runs through the bore carried by air.if the energy loss, the sound will be not that rich.
If the flute body has high rigidity, the energy loss will be less. and normally hard wood has higher rigidity than soft wood.
Another thing which affects the rigidity is the micro structure of the timber, take bamboo as an extreme example. it’s has a low density, but it has the longest fiber among the woods, which gives a very high rigidity and low energy loss.
Compared to soft plastic, like PVC, it has higher density than wood, but has no fiber at all, so the sound is not rich, Delrin has higher rigidity, so it works better than PVC."
It seems very convincing to me.
To me that is one of the better theories I have heard in quite some time. Considering how this subject has been beaten to death, or close to it, over the years it is nice to hear some more subtle variables thrown in between “material makes no difference” and “(insert favorite material here) is better than any other”.
It is always commendable to take a Scientific approach to most unanswered questions. It gives us a better understanding of how things actually work. There is no doubt in my mind that the density of the material used plays a role in transferring the sound. I also tend to think that the embouchure/head of the flute gives the instrument it’s " Signature Sound. " Like many other players here, I have attached the head of one flute to the bodies of others only to find the slightest variables in sound from the fully assembled original. I am also considering that their must come a point/threshold in the nominal density, for want of a better term, of a material after which the improvement is not perceptible by the human ear. We also agree that the condition of the bore plays a large roll in smooth flow of air movement. Again, once you use timber of this " Nominal Density, " Then the overriding factors governing the sound of the flute must be in its physical construction and dimensions of component parts. There is probably more to discuss in that range of factors affecting sound than the hardwood, Delrin or for that matter concrete used.
You know, as long as people are talking about flute materials, I’ve been curious lately as to whether or not people use dymondwood to make flutes. It’s a laminate that’s fabulously hard, works up well enough in the various things I own that have been made from it, and can be very nicely polished. Is it a matter of the wood working poorly for flutes, being too heavy, being difficult to manage in the workshop, or just unpopular for cosmetic reasons?
Ralph Sweet at least made some whistles out of it. He may have made a few flutes and low whistles as well.
And both Gene Milligan and Paul Busman either currently or have in the past, offered whistles in Dymondwood.
Best wishes.
Steve
This explanation sounds convincing indeed and is fairly common sense, even for us who are not into physics too much.
I cannot get my head around the fiber thing, though. Perhaps someone could elaborate on this? How does fiber (and fiber length) complement density in making the sound wave more stable?
Does it have anything to do with the density/hardness thing?
What I found interesting is that another factor besides density and the nature of the bore’s finish is mentioned.
There will always be the fact of no two flutes being identical in manufacture. When that factor is ruled out the choice of material is next. I personally feel that material does make a difference. I also play Shakuhachi and I have never found, for me, a good substitute for bamboo for that instrument. I believe flutes are more than just tubes. The way they play, the blow, and how they feel in the hand are all part of the experience and how it feels to the player does affect how it sounds to the audience. It is not just about density in my mind. I think it also involves weight, cell structure, and now the idea of fiber length has been introduced. I think it is an interesting addition.
The delrin flutes that I make (and that other makers of this type of flute make) have the conical bore. I don’t know if any makers use a machinable version of PVC or if you are speaking of standard PVC pipe material. I think it is important to compare apples to apples in this regard. Is one comparing a cylindrical bore PVC flute with a cylindrical bore delrin flute of the exact same dimensions? Is one comparing a PVC pipe flute against a conical bore flute made from delrin? I could see how a well made PVC pipe flute might sound dull if compared to a well made conical bore delrin flute (for example) but they would be totally different animals.
I’m very skeptical that in a blind listening test that anyone is going to be able to distinguish between PVC and delrin if the flutes are of the precise same design. From what I’ve read, PVC can be machined but it doesn’t necessarily machine well (I’ve never tried so this is all hearsay). I don’t know how effectively anyone could ream a conical bore in a piece of PVC rod stock, as compared to delrin. So without taking that extra step then one is only comparing PVC pipe to a piece of delrin that has been machined to the same dimensions (i.e. made into a pipe). Until such an experiment is made, I think that the notion that the rigidity of delrin is going to be audibly superior is just unsupported speculation. Perhaps an educated speculation, but still speculation.
I do think that you are correct about the importance of how the flute is experienced by the player. I think that a player who is really connected to their flute and feels good about it might actually play better and the audience will share that experience. But most of the discussions about materials tend to hinge on whether the material itself affects the sound, and this can’t really be isolated easily. Flutes do have tiny variations and no two really are exactly the same, though one might get pretty close. Certainly the players impressions (holding the flute) are going to be different from the listener. This subject has been pretty well flogged, I agree, but in all of the tests (however limited) that have been done where the listeners were removed from the influence of personal, subjective impressions (i.e. had no idea what they were listening to because it was a blind test) they could not distinguish differences in material. This link has undoubtedly appeared before, but its worth posting again: http://members.iinet.net.au/~mtattersall/Articles/Woodwind_Materials.htm
This is just an observation, but I’ve noticed that the best sounding, to my ear, wooden flutes also tend to come alive - vibrate in my hands when playing. I can’t say I’ve experienced that with a Delrin flute, though my sample is limited. The Delrin flutes I’ve tried seem heavy and dead in comparison to wooden ones - with very similar bore design and embouchure. Thoughts on that?
Thanks for your replies. I’ve seen the odd dymondwood whiste online, but I guess I’m wondering about the likelihood of seeing a low D flute at some point, or maybe a piccolo. It just seems like it would be a good material, yet I rarely see it, and it makes me wonder if there is a reason I’m not perceiving why makers or buyers wouldn’t agree. (Maybe there’s a part of me that dreams of a flute the color of a Texas barfly’s nail polish. )
For my opinion, I tend to think that nothing without a double-blind study will be of value; there have been too many studies where people’s ears get tricked by the romance of 400-year old violins and where new fiddles sound as good as or better than the old Cremonese ones as long as neither the audience nor the players know which is which. People can fool themselves too easily, especially when it comes to something as emotionally engaging as music and a material with the romance and beauty of natural wood. I adore natural wood, even down to the warmth and feel of it, but I plan on going Delrin-only for my flutes, even should I decide to get a keyed one someday.
Part of this is because I live in the Northeast corridor in the US, and while there are many places that run hotter/damper and colder/drier, there are few that swing so widely between them during the year. I want a flute that I know won’t misbehave under that kind of stress.
I recently made a batch of Pratten flutes from a variety of materials including one from delrin (in fact it’s on the Irish Flute Store website right now). Blayne said some very obliging things about that particular flute, as did paddler when he he played it. I also thought it to be a very lively and responsive flute.
Delrin makes outstanding instruments…period. It doesn’t meant that all the delrin flutes that you play will be good instruments because there are too many other factors, but as a material there is nothing dead about it at all (acoustically). Just the opposite, in fact. It gives a really smooth bore that is uniformly rigid and reflective and it machines very cleanly, allowing the maker to replicate detail very easily. Again, some players might not vibe well with a synthetic material, but objectively it makes great woodwinds.
Everyone has different views on the subject of materials, of course, but at this point my own experiences have convinced me that the ongoing fixation of players (and many makers) on the significance of materials has some mystical component. And I don’t mean that to be in any way dismissive–these things are important. You have to enjoy picking up your flute, and for many the character and uniqueness of wood inspires them. I work mostly with different woods, so I totally get it. I love wood.
But I’ve made a lot of flutes from a lot of materials. About 5,000 instruments at this point from more than 30 or so different types of wood. When I first started, I really believed that materials mattered. As time went on, this changed as I experimented more (and as my ability to replicate design aspects improved), and eventually I came to realize that the other factors we’ve mentioned (bore shape, bore surface, embouchure cut, finger holes, etc., etc.) were the actual factors affecting the sound. I’ve done some experiments to specifically isolate the wood in the equation (to distinguish the body, or walls of the instrument from the surface of the bore). My conclusion is that its not the material. This conclusion is supported by the few controlled studies that have been done on the subject.
Of course, as mentioned in every other thread on the subject (and a number of times by myself) the surface of the bore is absolutely affected by the material and how it machines. If it is not finished in some way that eliminates irregularities then you are going to hear/feel it.
I’ve had this discussion with other flute makers, a number of whom strongly disagree and put tremendous emphasis on material, but I honestly think that they are confusing the small differences that result from the “human factor” for the sound of the material. I try to make each type of flute that I construct as consistent as possible with others of its type. I’ve gotten pretty good at that and take great pains but I’m fully aware of the small variations that occur. I cut the embouchure holes on my Pratten flutes using a template, but the cuts are finished by hand (they have to be) and as a result they are each unique. You might not be able to see it, and you might be hard pressed to actually measure the difference but its there. It’s all too easy to ignore those minute variations and assign any perceived difference to the wood.