I’m actually one of the Backstreet Boyz disguised as Michael Flatley disguised as a beginner flute-player and GHB enthusiast from North Dakota. So any of my comments are definitely FWIW. 
Cheers,
Aaron
I don’t think this has anything to do with internet forums or the bona fides of instrument reviewers on the 'net.
Seems like Don is just kicking the cat when he really should be mad at himself .
Don,
Did you know you could get the Murray for $650 at the time you bought the M&E?
Has anyone here said the M&E was as good as any of the “top tier” wooden flutes? (maybe someone has, but the consensus is closer to “a good, care free, beginner’s flute that will take you quite a long way before you need to upgrade, and then you can keep it as backup for extreme conditions or to keep assembled in the kitchen.”)
NEW keyless blackwood flutes from top makers are in the $800-$1200 range. A bigger difference that $250. Somebody else took the loss on the Murray (or they had it for along time), then you complain that you have to take a loss on the M&E.
You’d lose that bet.
Bottom line, if you knew you could get the Murray for $650 and you bought the M&E for $400 anyway, then you just haven’t been paying attention.
If you didn’t know about the Murray when you bought the M&E, you should still consider yourself lucky that you got a good deal on the Murray and write off the loss on the M&E due to the unfortunate timing. In either case, quit bitching about the people on this forum, they had nothting to do with it either way.
jb
Hi Don: I’m a yuppie punk with Harleys, and I have lots of cool flutes. Oh, that’s right, it bugs you. How again is that anybody’s problem but yours?
Another factor that may account for the difference between the 2 flutes, besides materials and workmanship, is that the M&E is an R+R model and the Murray is a Pratten.
If you wanted a Pratten and bought and R+R, who’s fault is that?
Or maybe YOU didn’t know the difference.
Look in the mirror dude.
jb
Actually neither, but thanks for pointing that out. We wrote our responses at the same time . . . and you finished first, so mine came after. I hadn’t seen yours, so mine was in response to Don.
Stuart
On the message boards in heaven, everybody knows
what he or she is talking about, and there
is complete accountability. If we’re good, one
day we will post there, too. Best
Really? :roll:
I was under the impression tha most Murrays are Pratten styled, but, hey, what do I know?
Seriously, I could be mistaken, it’s happened once or twice before.
jb
Don’s Murray is a RR inspired model. And I agree with Don a 100%. We differ however in that when I read certain bold statements I feel amused rather than aggravated. Everyone should dearly love and faithfully practice on the flute they have while waiting to receive their very own Olwell Pratten or Noy R&R. Every other flute is lacking. Really.
Ok, so I put my foot fimrly in my mouth with that one. But I can only blame myself, not the denizens of this board.
jb
Don’s main gripe seems to be that he took a few forum peoples’ positive word on the M&E Rudall and he didn’t agree with them. Might many of these players have been relative beginners? On the C&F forum? How astonishing!!
There were dissenters, of course, had he been looking for contrary views, although by the time M&E came out with the R&R model, most of us detractors had been around the polymer-vs-wood thread a dozen times. How many posts did I, and others, need to write adding that, for a few hundred more, you can get any number of better wooden flutes?
But Don read what he wanted to read and he liked the $400 price tag. From what I understand, at this price, the M&E Rudall really isn’t too bad.
But, surprise; really good new flutes cost more than that, at least double, and the Murray he got for as low as $650 was a lucky fluke (flute?).
There are people on this forum, some relative novices, others that have been around quite awhile, who apparently have enough flute-money kicking around to own many flutes ranging from the polymers to fully keyed Olwells or Wilkes, etc. Others, like myself, have experience playing many flutes, but can only own one or two nice ones ourselves. Still others can only afford an M&E or a Seery, and they, too may range from a novice to an experienced player. A good player on an M&E – no matter what I think of the actual flute against a better wooden one – will still play well, and their music will sound far better than a lesser player on a Grinter.
While it might be interesting to somehow qualify the playing abilities of all the various people on this forum with their various flutes, all said and done, it’s really not an issue. The issue is that, while the advice given on a forum is only as good as the unknowns who give it, the person that takes that advice is responsible. I have read many great reviews of flutes, both polymer AND wood, that I think are mediocre at best; What’s my responsibility? Denounce the flute publicly, and get into an argument with a happy flute owner just to say that they are, IMO, wrong? Why? Just to let the Dons out there know what I think and (possibly) save him a coupla bucks? Nope; I’d rather hear that someone’s happy with their flute, and hope that not too many newbies jump on the euphoria.
Gordon
Me, too, actually.
That would be a bad mistake Don. To start with they reviewed their whistle not yours. Not every make is consistent within a given key, let alone across keys.
Recently, Jerry Freeman sent Peter Laban a Generation he regarded as unplayable. He got back recorded clips which clearly demonstrated that it was playable—by Peter. Now, unless you’ve been playing as long as Peter, you might actually be better served by reviews from less experienced players. Then again, you might not.
There’s a lot to take into account when assessing reviews of whistles and flutes but something like consensus of informed opinion is the best guide.
As far as reviews, you might take an approach that I do. I treat it like a civil case, a preponderance of evidence is needed. In other words I read a lot of reviews and look for similarities and differences of opinion. If still I can’t quite get the information I think I’m looking for (I say think because if I knew I wouldn’t be looking at reviews for reinforcement) then I ask the reviewer the questions I’m looking for answers to.
I’m not saying this is a good approach, but I have been able to successfully purchase many different items using that approach.
Of course, YMMV.
Tony
They are good whistles but to know that it helps to try them.
I have nine Overtons between low D and high Eb and don’t have a serious clogging problem with any of them. Will I develop a clogging problem when I improve?
Seriously, I live in a warm climate so maybe I don’t face the problems you do. But I bought mine before I joined the board and learned straight away that you have to learn how to play them and how to breathe. To a greater or lesser extent you do with every wind instrument. It might take ten minutes or it might take longer. It might never happen. That might be the fault of the instrument. But it might just as easily be your fault.
I don’t think it’s only a matter of how experienced a reviewer is, but also similarities in desired characteristics (tone quality, breath requirements, embouchure style, etc.) between the reviewer and the seeker that determine(s) whether a particular seeker will agree with a particular reviewer’s reviews. (Geez, that seems a funny sentence.) I think experience with a whole lot of instruments does weigh in and make a particular reviewer better at comparisons than another reviewer who likes his flute because it’s the only flute he knows and he’s gotten good at playing it. But I think the only way to know if you (said seeker) will agree with a particular reviewer’s opinions, over time, is to take one of his or her suggestions and see if you agree. I happen to love doing instrument reviews and matching people up with what I think they’ll like best, based on what they tell me about preferences. Yes, some instruments are just better than others, but within certain ranges, they are all of similar quality, just different, and this is where personal playing style and preferences come in. I love finding differences between instruments, and learning to make each one play the best it can. But I do have preferences, and I am happy to share those when asked.
Gotta agree with Jessie on this one as well. Besides physical attributes that differ between us, we also want to achieve different sounds and styles in our playing, either within ITM, or if we care to venture away from ITM. The differences in style or direction will (probably) warrant different flutes preferences. We talk about this, but – again, without sitting face to face and playing – what we say isn’t obviously what we mean.
I learned to play, for eg, on a German flute that is uncomfortable, it’s tuning dicey, but it has a decent sound. Some of them sound nice; this one does. It does not, however, sound like the Hamilton I generally play, which has a terrific “modern” Irish sound, much more what people on this list would expect to hear from their flutes. Many people buy Seerys and such to “work up” to flutes like Hamiltons and Olwells, but I’m glad I struggled with the old antique first, because, in many ways the German still matches the style I most incorporate, a more “old geezer” style I learned initially from an old pro with a horribly delapidated POS, who can still play most younguns under the bar table, and I often swing back onto the German to get that sound back. Yes, I would love for that German to be a medium-holed Rudall – that would probably suit still better – but I don’t happen to have one of those on hand.
I guess my point to all this is that we talk about consensus regarding flutes, but we come from varied and various places, enter at different junctures, looking for slightly different things, when we share our opinions and thoughts. It’s a valuable thing to keep in mind then, when two or more people, regardless of playing skill, butt heads over what they like or don’t.
High whistles, BTW, all sound like annoying speed-drills to me, no matter how much money you spend on them. I capped my whistle spending on Oaks and Generations, no more than $8 bucks a pop, and look – they’re hardly ever used! 
Gordon
Since we’ve done our venting and are starting to get conciliatory let me add my suggestion. I too agree that we are not all after the same thing and we need to factor this in when we read opinions. So consensus of informed opinion isn’t quite what we want, something more like consensus of informed opinion amongst like-minded souls. So we look for evidence of knowledge and experience and evidence of like-mindedness and for agreement amongst people who match our requirements on both scores.
I think there are other factors we weigh when assessing advice which make Don’s sort-them-into-the-sheep-and-goats approach seem far too crude. Lots of people on the board have great experience in one area but little in another. Lots will have tastes that match ours in some respects but not others. Some ar good at explaining difficult concepts, others who are perhaps equally good or better judges are not. I think the nuances that help us reach good opinions are far too subtle to express in a formula. I couldn’t say exactly how I reach decisions about what to buy but I do know that I usually end up with what I was expecting, more or less. (I tend to do a lot of research before I buy, but that effort would be wasted if I just treated every bit of raw evidence as being of equal value.)