Now before you all think I’m going to run it over with my car (I’ve had days though…) what I’m wondering if the reeds I have gotten with my David Daye penny chanter are save-able.
I’ve found one out of the bunch of three now that plays more or less in tune with itself somewhat consistently, but it is ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS sharp. not just a little bit sharp here, I’m talking half-way to Eb…sometimes more!
Is there any worth in untying the reed, and trying to flatten it by moving the slips of cane up on the staple at all? Would this action even achieve a flatter pitch or change everything else, so as to make it unplayable again?
SUGGESTIONS?
Brian~
P.S. numerous emails to David continue to go unanswered now, or simply to bounce back. Anyone have a current working email for him? Perhaps a phone number??
[ This Message was edited by: Brian Lee on 2002-11-05 09:25 ]
Assuming your chanter is made correctly, to play in tune with a ‘standard’ reed, and that your octaves are in tune but consistantly sharp, you can do two things:
Untie and rewrap as you suggested.
Rush your chanter (throat to bottom).
I’m also assuming you’re familiar with adjusting the reed in the reed seat on your chanter and that it doesn’t have anything to do with that.
Rushing the bore only makes bottom D and E gurgle and break all over the place, unless the reed is set so hard it practicly won’t play the second octave. The PC reed seats are not conical at all, so trying to move the reed in and out only serves to loosen it to the point it doesn’t seal and falls against the inside of the windcap unless it’s pushed all the way in.
And I have TRIED to reach David to ask him about sending the thing back to him, and seeing if there’s anything he can do, but I can’t send it to him, if I can’t REACH him.
I don’t think he’s a bad guy at all, but I’m kinda wondering about the customer service now is all. At any rate, this first go with my PC has been less than I had hoped…
Brian…I didn’t know you were playing on a PC. After viewing the construction of the PC on DD’s web site, you are right about the throat being cylindrical, rather than conical, which means you’ll have put more winding around the staple base to tighten up the fit, or dab a tiny bit of hard ski wax since you’re in SLC on the thread to keep it in place.
Unless you know as much about reed making as the maker, you won’t want to take a reed apart. The way a reed is assembled (tied) is almost as important (or more so) than the construction. Trust me, it will never work the same again. Besides, moving the blades in or out will mess up your octaves.
My guess is that the reed is set too deep in the throat since it’s loose, falling to the side, and nothing to stop it from going in too far. It may be leaking at the base too.
Dry climates do require slightly thinner reeds, ie, more scraping on the cane…this flattens the pitch too, but don’t try that unless you know for sure everything else is right. You can ruin a reed real quick by scraping or sanding too much.
I would second the question about whether you’ve had David check out the chanter. Anyone could have a dog slip through and if ever there was a man to perfect tuning it seems to be him (especially on his own product!) I’m sure you’re tired of hearing people talk about how great their Daye chanters are, so I won’t go into how it’s the one I end up playing at the end of the day when I’m frustrated with my other set. I’ve decided that I’m never messing with his reed again, since it plays in all weathers so far - but sorry, I said I wouldn’t put you through a gloat session.
One thing that I think is notable is that my pc plays in tune with the reed about a full quarter inch (~5mm) or more from the bottom constriction of the reed seat. You will need to use some of the hemp (yellow) that he sent with the set to re-wrap the reed where it goes into the seat until it slides in with some effort but stays exactly where you put it… some extra wax (beeswax) on the thread will help. This would be no different on any chanter, and in fact is somewhat easier than having to fit a tapered reed seat.
David is somewhat slow to reply sometimes, but this is in keeping with the industry standard. He does seem to be more than willing to give excellent post-purchase support - from what I’ve read, this is not always the standard (I have absolutely no complaints about my other maker, if he’s reading this).
So, to sum up - seat the reed properly, not all the way at the bottom of the socket. Follow up with your pipemaker.
Sorry, one more thing, I re-read and saw that you’ve been trying to get hold of David Daye. I’ve used the email on his site ( ddaye@daye1.com , if I recall correctly) successfully to order reed-making supplies in the last months. There was a lag of a few days between mail and reply, but then we don’t all sit in front of a screen all day (wish I didn’t).
I have tried the email from his site with no luck.
I also have worked with enough reeds to understand if I had a leak which I don’t, unless it’s in the reed itself…(edges perhaps?) And unless the reed is set ALL the way down into the reed seat, it doesn’t seem to fit either securley, or straight, resulting in damage to the lip.
Anyway, I don’t know what else to do at this point. I can’t play with anyone else, as I am SO far out of tune…David has made three reeds for me in the past now, but they ALL were sharp. I had told him my problems, and asked if he could flatten the reeds closer to concert pitch, and he said he’d be happy to send a new one, but each time it arrived, it played exactly the same as the ones before.
In looking at the exterior dimensions, they are all identical, down to less than a fraction of a millimeter. I would think if you lengthened a reed, it would drop the tone slightly, hence my original line of questioning.
Brian… to answer your question, Yes, it would change the pitch but it can also affect your octave tuning. At this point, what do you have to loose? Measure the length of the reed unwrap it, slide the slips out 1-1.5mm re-wrap it. Check it.
Another suggestion is to take the reed to the hobby store and get some tubing of the same diameter. Cut and fabricate your own staple in the same fashion as the original only increasing it’s overall length by 5-6mm. Reuse the same slips on the new staple and see if that gets you back into range.
Brian…you are right in wanting to extend the reed, but not in extending the blades further from the north end of the staple. You would need a longer staple, thus extending the south end. Or, like one of my setups, a tube for a slide (brass staples only) which you can slide the reed in or out and tune up and down almost a half step. I’ll send you a picture is you’d like. But with your cylinder throat, if it’s long enough at the north end, you should be able to do this anyway.
The problem with untying the reed to pull the blades out, is that you’ll increase the internal volume of air inside the reed, thus lowering the upper octave. That measurment, where the north end of the staple stops up inside the reed, is critical. Also, you may never get the sides of the blades to close again because of the different angles you’ve created.
I have a Daye PC with precisely the same problem. However, I was able to solve it(more or less) by doing two things. 1. Put the reed as far out of the seat as you can. It’s not going to sit rock-solid, but if you play around with wrappings, you can get it to sit with just a half-inch or so of the staple in the reed seat. 2. Rush the reed staple. I used a piece of vermicelli (don’t laugh, it works) and a dab of elmer’s glue to keep it in place. If you ever need to take it out elmer’s glue can easily be scraped off. I wouldn’t recommend super glue. I just experimented with different lengths until it sounded right. But mine must be over 3/4 of the length of the staple, maybe more. Now it’s relatively well-behaved. Ive played with sessions and other pipers and the tuning seems pretty good. Rushing the chanter didn’t work very well because, as you described, the bottom D gurgled way too much. I like to play a light setup which compounded the problem. My chanter doesn’t seem to like tape on the holes either. Whatever hole you tape causes that note to be weak and jump the octave when you don’t want it to. Except the E hole. The E won’t sound right unless there’s tape on it.
I wonder if Daye’s PC’s just do this in very dry climates. Where I live is virtually a desert. Even inside is still very dry. Will dryness cause reeds to go sharp? I know it’s not the chanter, it’s made out of metal and plastic. Anyway, best of luck.
Sincerely,
j dasinger
I think I’ll try unwrapping one of my damaged reeds (thanks to a sneaky little barb of metal left in the windcap after manufacture) and see what that’s all about. And I’ll try rushing the staple too. What are the specific effects I can expect from doing so? Will it drop the pitch of the whole instrument, or just one octave?
Thanks so much everyone for your help and encouragement here. This is what piping should be about eh?!
Yes, it’s probably a bad idea to cram your chanter with foodstuffs. But a guitar string wasn’t handy at the time:)
Anyway, to answer Mr. Lee’s question. I didn’t notice any great difference between the two octaves. That is to say, rushing the reed seemed to flatten the whole chanter in both octaves. For some reason, the second octave G seemed to become a little harder to get in some cases. But I’m not totally sure it was the rush. Might have been. I’m happy to say that the bottom D is quite stable and I can get hard D as well with no gurgling.
Sincerely,
JD
That’s the crux of the troubles…I’ve been trying to get ahole of David with no luck for several months now, and basicly gave up.
After a LOT of tweaking and tinkering with it all last night, I THINK I’ve gotten it to a playable level, but still not sure just how “in tune” it really is.
There have indeed been some reeds of mine
that ran well sharp.
It was driving me crazy for some weeks and
I had several false starts trying to find
what about my setups had changed. Some
reeds shifted after leaving my island.
My construction method is intended to prevent this, and has done so for years in most
cases, but obviously I got off track.
The chanter itself hasn’t changed, it’s
been independently tested and replicated
many times, so all of this is purely a
matter of individual reeds. A great
frustration to the piper nonetheless.
If I delivered a reed that wasn’t acceptable
from the outset, that’s clearly my fault
and I’ll replace it. I’ve been catching up
on tardy e-mails but anyone who hasn’t heard
should try again.
Ya know, if at all possible, I’d really like to give you a call sometime and discuss what’s been going on. I am still hoping it’s just due to my lack of experience with the pipes and all that, but I don’t know.
It seems that every once in a while, when it behaves, the whole setup plays like a DREAM! but it comes and goes, and with as much performing as I’m starting to do (mostly on whistl at this point, but I’d like to use the pipes more as I progress) I’m struggling to find that magic balance that will give me enough stability to do so well.
Please feel free to contact me off list, or through private message here if you prefer. If a chance to talk “in person” as opposed to email might be more helpful, I’m all for it!
on the thread to keep it in place.