Finding the Ideal thread for tennon wrapping

Irish Flute
1

I was observing the debate on the strangled flute phenomenon, not having anything useful to contribute I didn’t contribute. However in the aftermath I remembered that my father works in fibre sciences and holds a PhD in flax fibre, he also holds a degree in physics, he is, however, not a flautist, so is missing the ‘folk knowledge’. I gave him a call and discussed the ‘strangled flute’ hypothesis, I then asked for his input from a materials perspective. I will endeavour to type up his responses at length however here are some headlines from the initial conversation:

[*] Do not use synthetic threads to wrap – synthetic thread is thick (half a mm is the figure he gave), and has an un-ideal topology for wrapping without cutting into the underlying wood.

[*] A Hydrophobic thread / fibre is better then a hydrophilic fibre – Sadly, most natural fibres and threads are hydrophilic (that said, I believe cork is as well). Hydrophilic wrapping will react unpredictably to moisture.

[*] Fibre is better then thread – fibre is much thinner. (50 microns was his figure for flax) additionally, having many short fibres instead of one length of thread will have an effect on the overall compression. – A happy side effect is that a fibre wrap should be more air-tight then a thread wrap.

[*] The ideal material is a plant fibre – (I know plant-fibres are his field, but its not a shill) such fibres are actually hollow, allowing for better ‘performance’ when compressed. He suggested Cotton, flax, Hemp as preference, and Wool as ‘an interesting experiment’

So what next:
Well ill probably forget to do any of these things, loose intrest and get back to practicing the pipes, However…

My dad is ‘scoring’ me some spare flax fibre from one of his experiments, so once im settled in Cork I shall strip one of the joints on my flute and attempt to replace it with a flax fibre wrap, secured (if required) with wax, While I don’t have the tools to measure compression I will at-least be able to test the practicality of this method.

After that, I will (time and money notwithstanding) conduct a proper experiment on another flute.

Finally/Ideally/Perhaps/If enough people are interested/ we can find some money for the sample prep, and after further consultation with my dad, we will smuggle a ‘strangled flute’ into the lab, get it under the ESEM and see exactly what’s happening close up – dad expressed an interest in the micro-fractures and the like – a comparison between a strangled flute, a ‘old but fine’ flute, a new thread wrapped flute and maybe some others could yield some interesting results - specifically, evidence that the strangulation is due to the wrap and not just to mis-use.

In closing, someone has probably done all this work, or will tell me not to bother as its in too much minute and we already know that cotton is best, but hell, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

2

If you are going the fiber route why not wool? Might be more hydrophobic than fiber. Might be able to make a felt* like wrapping, I mean, if you are experimenting.

*Unfortunately the lanolin that helps make wool hydrophobic needs to be stripped to make wool into felt.

To early to think where is my coffee…

3

Ill certanly give wool a try at some point, i have flax relativly to hand at somewhat short notice, so i can start there, and to reject wool just because its an animal fibre is… racist? speciesist? cell-wall-ist? i dont know. Ill try and find some raw wool, and tease it into a pseudo yarn once the flax experiment is done.

Felt however, i dont like working with felt, and its easly spoiled by water, i actually think it can rot! but its certanly concievable to try a felt covering wrapped with some neutral(!) thread to hold it in place.

4

Thanks for this contribution, Chris.

Wool is not good for lapping - the fibres are too brittle and the lapping would wear out impracticably quickly. Also the tendency for fibre ends to stick out would make a nasty, hairy lapping surface, even well greased down. And, I think, ultimately wool is not truly water-proofable, even in its raw fleece state with all its lanolin. On the sheep, lanolin and the tangled wool make water run off, but comb and compress the wool and even if you leave or add to the grease, wet it and it will get soaked, right into the fibre. Imagine that in a flute-joint. And what happens to soaked woollen garments when they dry (unless special treatments have been applied or special care with the washing process is taken)? Why are woollen suits etc. “dry-cleaned”??? Don’t go there!

Flax or hemp were the old flute-makers normal use fibres, I believe. I’d use them if I could readily acquire loose spun/low twist material. In lieu of that, I use (what you’ll find on your flute if you’re foolish enough to disrupt it unnecessarily, Chris!) embroidery “silk” - actually cotton, but not hard spun (high twist). I do not think you will find it practical to apply any fibre as lapping without at least some twist to make a loose yarn - you simply won’t be able to lay hanks of combed but un-spun fibres into place and keep them there, even with oodles of grease. And grease IS necessary at least as surface lubricant for assembling the flute, even if not as a water-proofer. (And I’d say it is essential for that - put an un-greased lapping on your flute and play it at your own risk!)

This old thread includes my account of what I use and how I go about doing the job. I think you’ll find it chimes with some of your father’s comments - might interest him.

Chris, seriously, don’t go doing these experiments on your flute until you know what you’re doing! You’ll just end up cracking sockets!

5

well i will take a lot of care - obyously, having just figured out how to play the bugger in tune im not going to take any major risks of knackering it. :stuck_out_tongue:

also, im going to have to learn how to do this level of maintnence anyway - i alredy have the keys on and off it every few months to clean, oil and wax the wood and i was giving some thought to re-wrapping the joints sometime this year anyway. - its just the next step in the process.

thanks for that how-to link, ill double ask dad about the performance of flax fibre in water - which i think is the main concern here being the fastest route to cracked joints. Dad should be able to give a definitive answer on a flax fiber’s performance when wet, he proablay has a lot of intormation on waterproofing treatments aswell, if it dose turn out to be hydrophylic im sure theres an easy way to ‘convicne it otherwise’ without exessive waxing.

6

No worry about waxing, Chris - just put plenty on! There’s no reason to want to reduce the amount and it is needed as lubricant (as I said) and to help handle the thread while laying it and to hold it in place, besides any benefit of waterproofing. You do not want “dry” joints in any case!

Glad to hear you’re tackling the routine maintenance, though!

7

Would polyester thread be a good contender? It is strong, it can be thin, it does not absorb water, and it is flexible to a much higher degree than cotton yarn, so I expect it can give better, does not resists so much against an expanding (wet) tenon. It also restores to its former length after being stretched. Cotton does not do that, and I read that cotton can actually shrink when ageing, due to some break up in the fibres or so.

Nylon can stretch fairly well too, but does not restore so well to its former length. That’s why polyester is preferred over nylon for sewing work.

8

Good enough reasons, just trying to think of alternatives. I only have one instrument with “thread” and it looks like a red synthetic yarn.

9

Polyester might well be fine - if one could find it in a loose-spun form - ordinary polyester sewing thread is too high twist and too thin to my mind. Many people do use it. I wouldn’t, not on grounds of its composition, but of its available form. But as I keep saying, there is in my (quite long) experience no problem with cotton in the form and method I use.

10

I think the expression you’re looking for is “mammal supremecist.”

11

Has anyone other than myself looked at the title and said, “This is as good a thread for the topic of tenon wrapping as any. Ideal, even.”? :tomato:

As ever, waxed dental floss for me. :slight_smile:

12

i have been using silk thread that a friend gave me a long time ago. it cannot stand much tension, it snaps easy so tension wrapping is kind of out of the picture, and i add some wax. in case i need to subtract/add i use a small piece of dental floss (waxed) that is of a different color than the silk thread so i can spot it easy to add/subtract.
i recommend silk thread and wax.

13

Silk is excellent for tenon wrap, I also use thin polyester and put a lot of layers on, it lays down very evenly.
Maine thread company makes a nice waxed thread. http://www.mainethread.com/Improved_Waxed_Cord.html

14

I use a fine PA (polyamid) thread used for sewing machines. I combine layers with strong tension and layers with lower tension, the last layer always has strong tension. That gives a nice flexible/snappy but still strong wrapping, and it doesn’t expand when getting wet. I take three threads at the same time to speed things up, as the thread is very thin…I have a supply of about 15000 yards, that should last for a lifetime!

15

I hope they are 3 different colors, that would look neat.

16

There are several posts hinting at this but noone has addressed it, even in that long brutish previous thread of a topic.

In order to strangle the tenon, I think the wrapping thread has to shrink. Not much, but even the smallest amount of shrinkage would do when a tightly wrapped joint is surrounded.

Lewis

17

ya know the things are not dishwasher safe, don’t ya!

18

Unless you buy a really long flute. :tomato:

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My delrin flutes are! :tomato: