FAQ help: Second octave D fingering - why vent?

Irish Flute
1

I was recently asked this question privately and as it seems to crop up here from time to time thought it might be helpful to post my response up - although the questioner was asking regarding flute-playing, the answer/explanation applies to both flute and whistle.


Question:
I got used to playing D second octave with all fingers xxx xxx but a little higher than the first octave. (i.e. overblowing.) Yet, I see most of the flute players playing oxx xxx. Is my fingering wrong and in what way? I’m trying to catch up…

Answer:
As you saw from your observations of other players, yes, oxx xxx is the normal 2nd 8ve D fingering. You can play it with the fundamental (1st 8ve) fingering (xxx xxx) just overblown, and there are times when this may have advantages, either in a complicated passage of finger changes or because you actually want the slightly different timbre this fingering gives the note as a positive thing, a chosen musical effect. However, I would say that both those situations are really for fairly advanced players working on subtleties; beginners/improvers should be working on using the standard fingering and getting as familiar and fluent with it as possible in all contexts by constantly using it and practising it until it becomes automatic, second nature (like a good many other technical challenges in the process of learning any instrument!).

There are good reasons why the standard fingering is oxx xxx. Let’s try to demonstrate why: first, try playing both ways - sustain the best tone you can on the standard fingering oxx xxx and then put L1 on to make xxx xxx - listen to what happens. Then do the opposite. Then play some slow scales “over the break” from 1st to 2nd 8ve and back - again try with both fingerings and hear the difference. Long established general opinion is that the “vented” fingering oxx xxx has a stronger, cleaner, more in-tune sound and offers greater dynamic control (louder/softer without breaking back down to the fundamental). Do you agree?

The reason for this is that, as the 2nd note in the harmonic series, the node in the wave form in the air-column inside the flute/whistle is at or very near the C# tone-hole. By opening the hole you assist the formation of the node (forced by overblowing, which doubles the wave’s frequency) and the definition of the wave at that higher frequency and reduce the element of undertones from the fundamental in the resulting sound. This venting is less necessary in the over-blown 2nd harmonics of the rest of the scale which anyway have less of a tendency to sound undertones (I think because those notes are not based on the full length of the tube - not sure on this point) and for which appropriate vent-holes are not in any case available on a normal flute/whistle. (3rd octave is another story!) That is the gist of the matter. I hope I have described it correctly - I am not an acoustic scientist! You can read about the science of flute acoustics in these articles if you want to know how/why flutes work in the way they do (1st of 5 - they give links to the following ones). Lots of useful things in there that will help you to understand what you are doing or why you are trying to/need to do it.

Simple answer to end: there are very good traditional players who mostly use the same fingering in both octaves, so it isn’t “wrong” in trad music. Classical players would say it is wrong for reasons of clarity and control of tone and dynamics, and you can test for yourself why. There is some risk in using overblown xxx xxx that you won’t hit it cleanly, will get a wolfy sound or drop the octave unintentionally or get a squeak - completely avoided by using oxx xxx. Most players in all genres learn to use the vented fingering most of the time (on whistle too!). I’d advise doing it “right”. A fairly short period of intensive and consistent regular practice will soon make it habitual. After all, every school child learning Bohm flute is expected/made to do so and without exception they all get it!

Response:
Thanks! It can’t be more crystal-clear now!
I made the tests with both fingerings, and I fully agree with you. I’ll stick to the normal one as I need to practice a lot.

Struggling with high-end notes
2

Great post!

I would like to see this one made into a sticky, this subject seems to come around fairly frequently.

–James

3

I’ve said it before, Jem, that you really need to write a book about flutes. The list of topics could be: old flutes, flute repairs, flute performance, etc. You could also have a section of favorite tunes with the dots to balance things out. It would be interesting, as well, to have a chapter on your recent experiences with school classroom flute/fife building. Having a book on the subject would surely improve your contract negotiations for upcoming classroom projects.

4

I found it interesting that at Boxwood NZ a few weeks ago, Chris Norman was getting us to use the unvented fingering xxx xxx for 2nd octave D.

Cheers
Graeme

5

I vent mostly on sustained Ds for greater clarity and intonation. Sometimes the “darker” sound of the unvented D is better for the tune, however. When playing fast, I think venting is pointless, as you are not on the not long enought to make a difference. However, if you have trained yourself to vent, there’s no reason not to.

For those who play Boehme flutes, do you vent the Eb key? Which finger do you use for F#?

It’s okay to just do what is easiest. If it sounds that bad, you will know.

6

I wouldn’t call the vented fingering “normal,” although that’s up for debate. It’s normal for Boehm players, but I wouldn’t be so quick to call it normal or standard for wooden flute players, especially folk players. There are quite a few great flute players who don’t vent. As Graeme mentioned, Chris Norman teaches non-vented unless the phrase is easier otherwise. I’ve read of a few other teachers who teach the same. I believe there’s a quote from Jack Coen on Brad Hurley’s site saying the same.

I’ve owned some flutes that needed vented fingering. One was flat with the second D non-vented. Two were Prattenish and tended to jump up to the second-octave A very easily if non-vented. I don’t own any of those flutes any more.

As with many other things, it’s best to be able to do both.

7

Good explanation, Jem. I’d only add a few teensy points to discussion so far:

Opening hole 1 doesn’t assist the formation of the middle D; rather it annihilates the other adjacent resonances that the low D fingering would otherwise permit. So opening hole 1 prevents you from slipping into low D4 or A5, and also cuts out any content of those notes from clouding the note you want.

The vented D5 (middle d) was also the standard use for conical wooden flutes in the 19th century and before, so it’s use is not some plot cooked up by Boehm.

We would vent other 2nd octave notes if we had any suitable vent holes and the fingers to reach them! But that would require a string of holes higher up the tube than hole 1, and a third hand to operate them! So the only reason we only vent for middle d is that that is the only note with a convenient vent. We can and do use vents to control 3rd octave notes - that’s possible because the vents have only to be 1/3rd of the way up from the lowest covered hole, not 1/2 as for the second octave. But even there we run out, and so have to go to playing 4th harmonics!

The saxophone gets around that problem by having two vents, one right up on the neck, and some crafty little mechanical logic that determines from your fingering which one should be opened. Boehm (I think) introduced a special octave key to the flute but it didn’t catch on. He also made use of the two trill keys as vents for some notes.

It would be good to have a Flute FAQ sticky to cover perennials like this, why there are two open holes on the foot, etc, although we might have fun all agreeing on the contents!

Terry

8

Let me chime in, Jem, in saying that you’ve put up a fine post!

Let me also suggest that at once a player and a flute are all warmed up and ready to go, that they then play a tune calling for that particular tone, the second octave D, and then while playing that tune they immediately stop on that tone and hold it, to then consider the quality of the tone they are producing. In fact, xxx xxx produces a different tone than oxx xxx, and by stopping on that tone and holding it steady, it’s then possible to evaluate the immediate effect of whichever fingering the player could be using, as the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

However, as you mentioned, having a choice does give a player options.

9

Thanks for the various kind words and support. I’m glad if the OP is useful to anyone and also if such useful and sensible discussion ensues from it. I have my doubts about the viability of a Sticky for this kind of thing, though. I think there are probably good reasons why there isn’t one already!

Doug, I don’t think I’m the book-writing type! Won’t go into why here!

Chas, I do think it is quite legitimate to call the vented fingering “normal” or “standard” - as others have said, it is the fingering given in every historic fingering chart for (western)transverse flute I have ever seen from as far back as there are such things, and it is clearly the most commonly in use even among ITM fluters and whistlers.

Graeme - that is certainly interesting about Chris Norman. What rationale did he give?

Re: such luminaries as Messrs Coen and Rafferty as well as Norman advocating the closed fingering - fine, I’m not arguing as such (and was careful not to be exclusive about the matter in my OP), but I am puzzled as to why anyone finds it “easier” or “less work”. “Going over the break” - the all-fingers-together-having-to-hit-or-lift-cleanly-and-simultaneously change from ooo ooo to either oxx xxx or xxx xxx or the opposite is usually found to be awkward by beginners whatever and takes a significant amount of practice when one is at that stage. I think either is equally hard at that level, but once mastered ceases to be a problem. In my own playing I am not averse to using fudged fingerings where they offer me an advantage and sometimes only realise I am “cheating” after doing so rather than planning to deliberately, but I do not think (haven’t checked my repertory exhaustively! :wink: ) I ever fudge the 2nd 8ve D vent - or come close to needing to. On the odd occasion in fast passages where it does challenge me, I notice the wolfy sound and make sure I clean up my finger-work. I think I would likely only ever use the closed version deliberately in slower contexts where I wanted that sound for some reason and it would show to the listener, precisely the opposite of what most have said on that matter: I think it is likely to show in fast passages, and mostly disadvantageously.

10

For those who play Boehme flutes, do you vent the Eb key? Which finger do you use for F#?

I do vent the E-flat key on the Boehm flute.

Which finger I use for F-sharp depends on context. When playing things other than Irish dance music, I almost always use R3; however, if I’m moving E to F-sharp or vice versa, especially in fast passages, I’ll use R2. When playing Irish dance music, I use R2 almost exclusively as it’s slightly flatter and that is correct in this context.

Disclaimer: some Boehm-system flutes, including some very fine hand-made instruments, have a dramatic difference in tone in the F-sharps produced by R2 and R3. On these instruments you would need to use R3 almost exclusively, reserving R2 only for trills and for very fast passages.

The whole R2 / R3 thing is rumored to be much more difficult than it in fact is; that’s not usually what gives a learner fits on the Boehm flute. Things that are much harder to master are smoothing out the break between C and d, controlling the pitch and tone of open C-sharp, and hitting high E cleanly and clearly.

–James

11

I’m not sure I remember correctly but it could have been due to the fact that you get a very different effect with ornamentation on a vented 2nd octave D compared to a non-vented one. Chris certainly doesn’t always use a non-vented 2nd octave D but will choose which best suits what he wants to achieve.

I’ve recently noticed when practicing harmonics on D xxx xxx that when I get my embouchure focus spot on there is no difference I can hear between the vented and non-vented 2nd octave Ds but when my embouchure is not focussed as well the vented note is clearer etc.

Cheers
Graeme

12

It looks as though James has pretty much nailed it.

On a Boehm flute, the Eb key gets used most of the time, but not all of the time, as normal.

And, although F# is properly executed by R3, it’s a trick of the trade to use R2, while leaving R1 open, as an alternative, especially in fast passages, and trills.

13

Actually I find doing quick passages with vented D as troublesome… Going from a vented D to a lower note like B or A always sound like there’s an extra note bulges in between. It must be me, this requires both putting a finger down and bringing other fingers up at the same time on both hands, feels like more actions are needed. I use vented D only if I feel it’s required - like going from Cnat to 2nd D and back to Cnat, but not when going from Cnat to 2nd D and onward to 2nd E.
I think you’ll agree it’s a matter of how we’re used to play. Those folks who use vented D frequently; is using non-vented D introduces confusion? To me, as I’m not used to it and didn’t practice it too much, the other way is confusing at fast playing.

And yes, there are times that the 2nd D will come out squeeky on the whistle - requires practice too - but this never happened to me on the flute. Although on the flute the 2nd D will almost always have a quick attacking sound of the low D - is that wolfy?

14

Hi,

I agree that the vented d should should be regarded as normal. There will, no doubt, be some variation in the effect of xxxxxx from flute to flute, but oxx xxx is always the safer bet for clarity.

I don’t agree that xxx xxx should be used predominantly for slower music. In Irish flute playing, using xxx xxx for a bit of rough is a very useful addition to the armoury.

I’ve come across teachers that say xxx xxx is OK, and it generally is for beginners, but anybody playing Irish music should not cut themselves off from being able to use both at will.

Jim

15

Trip, I think your comments from your own experience illustrate most of my original points exactly. It is a matter of familiarity as to which you find “easier” and practice is what overcomes such blocks. Yes, the contrary motion from D5 oxx xxx to E5 xxx xxo also takes getting used to. But the thing is, the ideal in any form of music making is to develop one’s command of ones tools (body and instrument) to enable fluent voluntary use of all they can offer so that interpretation of the music itself, not one’s struggles with one’s own technical limitations, becomes the main focus. You can’t jump into the deep end and expect these things just to happen (though there are always a few lucky b*****ds for whom that works!). I know for sure I’m nowhere near that ideal myself. Classical players are expected to conquer all technical problems to the point where they can do any fingering combination and sequence in any key equally readily. That takes a huge amount of work. We traddies don’t have to go that far, but it is a sensible objective to reach a similarly advanced degree of proficiency within narrower bounds - to be able to master any fingering pattern/note sequence that crops up in “our” music in the keys we encounter - and of course we have our own vocabulary of techniques that Classical players don’t use which we also need to have at our finger-tips ( :smiley: ).

Graeme, thanks. OK, if you recall aright it seems Chris Norman was looking at the sound effects of cuts and crans on D5 - for sure a valid point - and an example of the more advanced technical/interpretative situations to which I alluded in the OP.

Jim G-S, I would strongly disagree that xxx xxx is “OK for beginners”. Why learn something that isn’t particularly easy anyway in a fashion you will then have to unlearn/relearn? Plus, when embouchure is not well developed and therefore voluntary control of the octave switch is weak, there are distinct advantages in using the vented fingering as it will facilitate clarity in practicing going “over the break” and avoid involuntary dropping to the fundamental. Do it the optimum way from the off, add chosen special techniques later. But I don’t disagree that as an advanced player one should have the full palette of possibilities at one’s command and be open minded to their use: when to use what is then a matter of personal artistic taste from a position of competent strength, not a second rate default from poor preparation. I think the educational principle of getting the mainstream established bottom line techniques well under one’s belt first is key here.

Re: the Eb key thing - as I’ve often said elsewhere on C&F, that is NOT a Bohm thing. Go back to those historic fingering charts from early Baroque when the Eb key was introduced through our kind of C19th flutes up to modern Bohm flutes - they all vent Eb most of the time, just as on Bohm (some differences of precise detail, but same principle). This is really a separate FAQ topic, but the answers and explanations in terms of how a flute works, what the design requirements/limitations are and how those affect the optimum playing technique - and what that requires in terms of practice and familiarity - are very much in parallel to the discussion here.

Practice it, crack it, use it; choose when to “break the rules” knowing why you are doing so. Don’t be lazy, fail to conquer basic technique, fudge for bad reasons.

16

Those are the sorts of things which make me favour the closed middle D.

I much prefer “pushing” or “honking” the D’s, both bottom D and middle D, and the closed middle D just has more “honk” to it.

Playing with pristine, pure vented middle D’s sounds prissy to me, and is not my cup of tea.

17

  1. the fingerings which show up in baroque/classical fingering charts do not necessarily have anything to do with practice amongst traditional musicians.

  2. I question the assertion that the vented middle D is the most common fingering among traditional Irish players. Most traditional Irish players I’ve come across use the closed middle D. The vast majority of non-traditional non-Irish players I’ve come across use the vented middle D, probably because they saw it printed in a fingering chart somewhere. Had they learned from a genuine traditional Irish player, they might instead use the closed D.
    But my impressions are not at all scientific. It would be interesting indeed if someone were to analyse the playing of a load of genuine traditional Irish players and see which fingering is actually most common.
    You might find out things you didn’t expect: such as, quite a few genuine Irish traditional players I’ve run across never use the C natural fingering, and all the tunes which we’re used to hearing C naturals in, use C sharps. What’s really odd is when they play tunes such as Rakish Paddy, Chicago Reel, etc etc with C sharps througout. I’m talking very good players, born and raised in Clare, who learned to play back in the 40’s and 50’s.

18

I’ve been playing Irish flute for close to 20 years now, and in the absence of any teachers in my locality when I started off I took to attending summer schools to get what exposure I could to real traditional players. Over the years I’ve spent time in instructional settings with Jack Coen, Seamus Egan, Catherine McEvoy, Marcas O Murchu, John Wynne, Kevin Crawford, Paul McGrattan, Mike Rafferty, June McCormack and several others I can’t recall at the moment. The topic of closed or open second octave D of course has come up a good few times in all those classes, although for the life of me I can only recall the positions of two of those players on the matter. Jack Coen, who was my first exposure to a true Irish flute player and for about five years my only exposure to one, always said that it didn’t matter whether you kept that hole open or not. But he didn’t, and so I didn’t either. It didn’t seem to matter either to any of the other teachers I encountered (or so I recall) until I had a class with June McCormack in East Durham a couple of years ago. She was adamant that the second octave D always be played with the open hole, and when I challenged her that it didn’t make any difference in the sound she made me play it both ways and it became clear that the note actually does sound a little better with the hole open. But by then I was too set in my playing ways and have never made the switch. Really, I don’t think it’s that important in comparison with the many other things that factor into good Irish flute playing. As for what most traditional players do, I’ve actually not paid much attention to it even though I know boatloads of flute players who are much better than I am. My unscientific guess though is that a majority of them play with the hole closed, for the same reasons that pancelticpiper does. You can do a lot more with that note if the hole is closed.

19

‘You can do a lot more with that note if the hole is closed.’

Will you please say something more about this? Very interested.
I’m playing it closed lately.

20

What pancelticpiper said upthread.