Ethics, Self-esteem and copying great art!

Lately I have become ever more aware of the utter desolation that can come from taking a great players work and copying it.

I have in mind here Bobby Casey who could do Coleman so well you would not be able to tell the difference, and OC my own meager attempts at getting some of the Maestro’s tunes as he did them.

One such track, -BTW I have heard dozens of fine players as well as beginners taking the same and getting it wrong- when I had eventually got around to slowing and studying it in depth showed me why this is so wrong and bad for me.

It feels like stealing. So after notating just one tune - which today BTW is almost click stupid easy to do- I quit.

I think we all have our own ‘muse’ just like Michael did, and we should, as he did, become so skilled on our instrument that we can easily express our G-d given talent.

RIP Michael Coleman!

Notating works and learning them note perfect, and even nuance perfect, isn’t in itself stealing. It all depends on what you go on to do with what you’ve learned. For many musicians and artists and writers, copying the style of an earlier great (or several earlier greats) perfectly is the first step towards developing their own style—a style the richer for having learned part of what made particular tricks work in certain places and better to avoid in others. Several very original styles also came out of a failed attempt to copy someone. How you start scarcely matters, although starting by analysing what worked for a great player isn’t a bad place to start; it’s what you do with the knowledge later that matters.

Openly copying from someone isn’t, in and of itself, stealing from them. (It might be a bit sad, but it isn’t stealing.) It’s replicating something. Nothing they had or valued gets taken away from them. It becomes stealing only if you go on to use that thing for your gain and thus deprive them of some benefit they otherwise might have enjoyed. In Michael Coleman’s case, that is highly unlikely.

By all means forge your own style, but having taken the trouble to find out what Micaheal Coleman’s soul is like (as you put it), at pay him the respect of learning what he has to teach while you’re eavesdropping. What’s the alternative—forgetting what you’ve learned?

Yep.
That all rings true here.I believe that every musician in the world started off with a desire to emulate their hero,irrespective of genre.
As soon as you get the basic skills sorted out you then begin to try and learn to play like somebody or other and the best way to do this is to copy them note for note, or at least try to.Eventually your own “voice” will begin to develop and if it has been built on great works by great musicians then you will have a good solid foundation on which to build your own sound.

After all wasn’t it the bould Oscar who said that “Imitation is the highest form of flattery”…

Slan,
D. :wink:

Because of my limited skill as a musician I tend to read topics like this and draw allegories to pursuits at which I’m more proficient.
And I think this: If I’m feeling stumped in a writing project–and I often am–I think about, and try to channel, Roald Dahl to get me unstuck.

Nevermind. This isn’t the same at all. I’m not going to rewrite James and the Giant Peach, whereas a whistler may very well copy another one ornament for ornament. But why not copy, as a form of disciplined practice, and then branch off from there?

Casey could indeed turn on the Coleman at times, especially the Jenny’s Chicken set. overall though he would be one who had a distinct own voice, a long way removed from the Sligo style. At the height of his powers (during the 60s) he was a seething powerhouse of musical ideas and creativity, combined with tremendous fiddling skills.
Like everybody else he did look at the music that came in on the 78 rpms and he will certainly have met and played with Paddy Killoran when Killoran was back in Clare.

Some regretted the influence, Sean Reid in an unpublished interview said:

There aren’t very many of the old school left now of the Patrick Kelly generation. Even Bobby (Casey) now is sort of turning modern. I mean, his style is different ,a bit, from Scully (his father).

but isn’t that the way? You take from others what you hear, what will fit in and aid your expression of the music.

Thanks for the encouragement and comments which to some extent lessen my fear of retribution, which, I am bound to add, I firmly believe in.

However, it is not quite as Wombat put it ’ soul’ that causes me to hesitate, but something more concrete. I can only begin to explain what I mean by describing the creative process in non-Irtrad terms.

So if I hear a great Blues man or OT Banjoist the precise things which make the performance outstanding are nearly always the style, the spirit, and or the person themselves. What makes us want to duplicate, in this case, is usually the effect of that genius. Take for example the rock era and find one, with the exception of Jimmy Hendrix, who today is still respected for anything other than being a copyist. Indeed the lives of these people often bear witness - at least to me- what may follow from stealing from the dead. Divine retribution? maybe. Does the same apply to Itrad? Yes I think so.

Dubhlinn’s very incisive comment is indeed apt only if he read me right, but I don’t think he did. Yes the best form of flattery is ‘imitation’, but here I am talking something far far deeper and IMHO evil to the same extent, i.e. like unto murder in its finality and rape in its cruelty, to wit stealing from a dead person by enacting their being through some means or other - almost as if their soul may be material for the time it takes the thief to play the piece AND no other, but not giving the dead person the credit, lying as well Put another way it is as if we took the poetry of some great poet and called it our own.

Emmline, yes you have the general idea but this - when eventually you come on it, is something far deeper, and for that reason will make the hair
on your head to stand up! It’s another world so to speak from ‘mere’ aping note for note. If you play Violin and do a little classical training with a Maestro esp. one who is so severe that one’s own music is intoxicating and the only way to end it is to stop. I don’t know if you get what I am driving at here but it is a much deeper level of being alltogether from the usual conscious reflective evaluating state.


Of all comments Peter you sorta aimed well, but skidded off target. Yes everybody begins to learn folk music by imitating series of events and things that they call tunes; but this is NOT merely learning tunes, this is more complex and the only near thing I could use for an example that would help put the point over to you, is acting, but acting so well that there is no reality of the being of the person except that portrayed by a genius actor.

All in all, besides discussing the unique quality of genius itself, I should begin with the notion common among the visual arts which asserts that sometimes the image IS the reality and the original is the fiction. This is not so strange when you consider we often do examine reality and complain about its imperfections when compared to some ideal entity.

A great example of which, is the teenager who is foolishly bought an object of great immaturity such as a sports car. Very soon the spoilt monster must have ‘go-faster’ wheels, stop-quicker brake lights and so on. Like the whinging baby one thing leads to another till in the end the final stupidity is the only thing left.

Genius in opposition often and more commonly takes the simple and passes just that on to us. It isn’t that Dali was a great painter, he wasn’t, but he expressed something we could not! It isn’t that Coleman was a great Violinist, he wasn’t, rather it was/is that he often created simple but very original musical art which we treasure, and which Coleman rarely if ever repeated; it is as if, Coleman was aiming at some perfection and these little cameos are a by product of his being.

My point is that those who copy don’t get it, they use a few cameos and call that genius taking the reward as it may come but not suspecting the higher or deeper process that is there, and so missing it altogether. As Peter rightly says B Casey was a fine fiddler in his own (self) right, and did not need to ape Coleman as he did, but he did and that’s the crux of it. In fact he did this so well that he otherwise sounds average, his own music aiming again at the cameos not the deeper being which you still hear in the playing of the great genius of our times.

Perhaps we are talking about how far to take the process of copying, perhaps some take it that far that they begin to live the life itself of dead genius. For example, the Elvis impersonators who try to do everything as Elvis did. If so, then truly art becomes mere craft.

I don’t agree with you there, Casey on the top of his form did not at all sound average, quite contrary. As I said, if I listen to recordings made of him durring the sixties I hear a raging creativity, enormous power and control and a multitude of ideas trying to get out. I find him average and boring when he does his Coleman tunes, which he not very often, msotly the Jennyy’s Chicken one I mentioned.

Well Peter to you he may have/sounded exceptional, but in his age he was not respected ‘that’ well; in fact, in his day we heard lots of Sean Mc Guire and the likes of Paddy Ryan etc but nearly never - I cannot recall ever - hearing Mr Casey. From Clare I recall Mr Canny and Dr Bill L, I recall the Kellys, the Crottys etc but Mr Casey only by name never a tune on the then only national Irtrad grapevine, Radio Eireann ( as it was called ).

But I don’t think we are on the same road at all, so perhaps the point is still in the ‘air’ so to speak.

Well, you obviously feel quite strongly about the subject. So strongly I think you’re missing some fundamentals.

You transcribed a performance. There’s nothing wrong with that, as everyone else has said it’s a valuable tool for learning. Transcribing isn’t copying. It’s studying.

And you seem to be forgetting that to mimic a great player with any degree of success, to ape them so well that blind listeners wouldn’t be able to tell the difference, requires tremendous skill and mastery, which from your last sentence above you don’t possess.

All the Elvis impersonators in the world will never be Elvis. You’ll never be Michael Coleman. Even with years of practice trying to mimic the man, you’d never convincingly sound like he did, there are too many variables. Different if he’d played an electronic synthesiser, of course, but he didn’t.

So continue appreciating his genius and learning from it, and when you have achieved the complete mastery of your instrument you spoke about, you’ll likely find you’re on your own path after all.

Besides, ITM is an oral tradition. You’re supposed to learn from the masters, not abandon their legacy.

Those of us who commented weren’t recommending that you build a style around copying, like a painter who makes a living as a copyist. Nobody thinks that that is the way to further the tradition. We were just claiming that at some points, we need to learn lessons from the greats of the past, to study their solutions and their methods. I don’t see how this could endanger you in any way. Great musicians give lessons and the techniques they teach are things they know, things that work for them. Naturally they would regard this as only the starting point.

Of course Elvis impersonators are a joke. They themselves would usually be the first to acknowledge that. But Elvis didn’t drop from the heavens fully formed. He’d been listening to gospel, country and R&B music all his life. His stage act and much of his vocal styling is derived from Wynonie Harris, for example. That’s how it’s always been. We learn from those we admire and, if we have any individuality, we go on to do things our way, a little bit differently.

:roll: nice tone.

Anyway, the recordings are there to make the point if you care to look them up.

You gotta start somewhere.

Listening to respected artists and trying to learn how to do what they do…even more, trying to figure out why they do it that way…I would think there are many worse ways to try to learn.

After all, when you learn a tune in the session, you tend to pick up the same setting and even the same ornamentations from the other players. That’s how tunes get passed around.

–James

Fudamentals such as? Please do talk a little about the fundamentals of learning Irtrad?

Never had the sligthest hint of wanting to be anything other than myself - which I must add is a busy enough job - how about you?

Irtrad is an oral tradion. Do you mean ‘aural’? if not I absolutely agree with you, yes lilters often make the bed into which many a wandering mistrel falls; but, is it even ‘aural’? And if it is why do people buy Joyce and other old manuscripts in the search for the real Irish Traditional Folk Music - where Jig, Reel and Hornpipe are all of them imported? Maybe English Folk Music is ‘aural’ ?

Ah ha, in that case there is no problem. Yes we can easily end up playing a Coleman setting but thats not what I am on about. When a person takes it that far that there is no difference between the original recording of somebody else and their performance, that’s when it becomes - at least to my mind - theft, evil and ultimately destroys the faker!

Well, then just don’t take it too far.

You have indeed. Well Coleman would not be a very good place for a novice to begin. It’s nice to know that Michael began as most of us Violinists did and still do with simple Bow drills and elementary school tunes. Oh well!

But OC thats not what I am talking about. This is about advanced and often talented Violinists - who else would have the technique? - aping Coleman, now thats a wholely different kettle of fish!

I wasn’t talking about the fundamentals of learning Irtrad. I was talking about the fundamental fact that you will never be Michael Coleman even if you practiced trying to be him for 20 years, and that you’re supposed to learn from the masters. Which I thought was obvious from my post, but clearly wasn’t. However I do note that in your last post that your desolation is now more about ‘advanced Violinists’ aping Coleman, rather than your own ‘stealing’ by transcribing and learning. Which I’m thinking is a sign of progress.

Never had the sligthest hint of wanting to be anything other than myself - which I must add is a busy enough job - how about you?

:roll: I can’t make up my mind whether you’re unable to grasp a point or are merely being obdurate. I’ll have one more go at explaining and then you can enjoy your desolation in isolation.

The point is that to copy a fiddler’s performance so completely ‘that there is no difference between the original recording of somebody else’ you would need to be (or become) that fiddler. You would need exactly the same instrument, strings, bow, tuning, physique, technique, musculature, stroke, number of hairs on the bow, bow tension, pressure on the strings, grip, breathing… everything. Because otherwise you’ll never precisely duplicate the original. (Which is why I made the point that it would be ‘easier’ to copy a keyboard synthesiser player where there’s nothing ‘living’ in the physical production of the music).

Well now,
I was just about to sit down and type out very much same thing. Lucky I checked back before bothering :wink:

Slan,
D.