E Riley flute

Irish Flute
1

Funny how a flute finds you. This was sitting in the window of a music shop, not far from where it was built about 200 years ago. The price was right, and I had an inkling of what it might be, so how could I say no? It turns out to be much more interesting than I realized. It is an E Riley flute, built in New York sometime in the early 1800s. There aren’t many references to these online, but there are one or two in the archives here, some one-key Rileys in the Miller collection, and one on Rick Wilson’s wonderful site. None of them are quite like this.

It is a small holed flute, very well built, and once it’s up to speed I think it will be equally at home in classical and traditional music. From what I can tell, it has a very sweet sound. Riley seems to have been the step-father (and teacher?) of both Firth and Hall, later of Firth Hall and Pond (thanks to Terry’s site). He came from England to New York in the early 19th century. The other flutes online that are listed as circa 1820 say “29 Chatham St”, but this one just says

E Riley
Chatham St
N - York.

no street number, and no “New”, just N-. Doesn’t seem to save much space. Perhaps he’d lost his W type?!

It has several unusual features. There is no tuning slide, and the headjoint is unlined. The headjoint tenon points down and fits into the socket of the next joint, the opposite of usual. I’ve read about this before but I forget what it means. There is no separate footjoint, but just one piece with the right hand joint. Also I loved the little detail of how the wood is cut away under the short F key to allow it to close deeper, a negative image of the key. Nice silver keys, and threaded ivory screw in the cork. What else am I missing?

It needs new pads and several hairline cracks sealed. Who wants to help? I’d be glad to take some measurements, and it would be interesting to compare with Terry’s FH&P data. To my great surprise, it plays right at 440 currently.

Someone to test something on a keyed flute for me?
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That’s a very nice find, and a really neat looking old flute. Yes, it is funny how a flute can find you. Coincidently, I have an F Riley flute from early 1800s that found me in an interesting way, but I’ll try to post that story as a new topic, after can I make some photos of it.

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Nice story. Cool find. Interesting Fnat block.

4

Very Nice and Interesting Old Flute! :thumbsup:

Monzani made flutes with the tennons on the heads and sockets in the bodies.

See “Rick Wilson’s Old Flutes” page on Monzani here: http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/monzani.htm

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Lovely flute! Great find!
Is that an inset ‘bump pad’ under the long F key?
It may still have the ‘spherical key pads’ that Terry McGee found and dissected. It might be possible to dissect a modern Sax 'Roo pad to make a replacement for the bottom C key.
I would love to get more information on measurements. The ‘New York’ makers seem to have had their own way. Even well after the Civil War they were staying fairly close to A=440 Hz.
This flute could literally be the father, or grandfather of Grey Larsen’s preferred flute.

Bob

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Just such a wonderful piece of history… nice one

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It does look very Monzani like in shape and the one piece third and footjoint. Lovely looking.

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I also have a Riley flute from the same era (pictures posted on the board here: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/flute-photos-come-post-your-flute-pictures/8842/691), although mine is a boxwood flute. I bought the flute from Patrick Olwell a couple of years ago and had it repaired by John Gallagher in West Virginia at Patrick’s suggestion. John replaced a missing F nat block and forged a new long F key for the flute and you’d never know now that the flute had been repaired. So, I would strongly recommend John if you are looking for someone to repair this Riley flute.

The great thing about my Riley is that it is not just a museum piece, but is actually a great player and is tuned to A=440. I use it frequently with a group of Scandinavian musicians who play for folk dancers. Since the flute is smaller and less obtrusive–more like the old French flutes in character–it blends well in a group of this nature. I have also used it in Irish sessions, where it also plays well, but doesn’t cut through pipes and boxes the way, say, a Pratten model might. But Riley (or Firth, Pond, and Hall most likely) made some lovely flutes and, based on my experience, I would encourage you to have it restored.

I had my Riley appraised recently by Fred Oster in Philadelphia, and was surprised to find that the market value of this flute is only around $1200-$1400. So, if you are planning to restore the flute in order to sell it, you might want to keep that in mind. Occording to Fred, American flutes just aren’t that collectible.

Finally, Wendell Dobbs, who is a professor of flute at a small college in West Virginia, wrote an interesting article on the history of the Riley family, published in the Fall 2008 issue of The Flutist Quaterly. It’s a nice piece, especially for those few of us out there who actually own Riley flutes.

Good luck with the flute and please post more photos if you have it restored to its full glory!

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Nice looking flute–cool find! An article from the Journal of the American Musical Instrument Society listing the 19th century New York woodwind makers places Edward Riley between 1820 and 1831.
I have a C.G. Christman made in NY in the 1830’s or 40’s, but it seems to be an exception to the A-440 rule: it plays well in tune at A-430.

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I just got this flute back from a local woodwind repairman, not an antique flute specialist, but an expert technician who’s thoughtful enough to be able to do these things the right way. He reglued a whole bunch of hairline cracks, put in some new pads and corks, and it’s all good to go. One thing he noticed, when redoing the tenon threads, is that apparently there are extremely thin ivory along the tenons, in between the wood and the threads. He couldn’t believe it at first, but it’s there. Has anyone seen this with other flutes?

It turns out to be a very interesting player. I’ve never heard a tone like this from any other flute. It has this focused warmth to it, and seems to lack upper harmonics almost like an early baroque flute, nearly like a sine-wave. The tuning is a struggle, but workable. Well, it’s fine in the second octave and above, and requires finess in the bottom octave. The foot is flat, and since it isn’t a separate joint for the foot, it just is what it is. I’ve figured out a couple alternate fingerings, that basically solve any troubles, and now I’m just having fun with it.

I wonder if, in the past 200 years, this flute has ever been out of the city. Well, I’m in Brooklyn, so maybe I’ve just done it!

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That is interesting, I have never heard of ivory being used on the tenon… Some of the makers used to use ivory under the rings, thinking that it gave better support of the sockets, which proved to be a bad idea… I think the thought was that it would be stronger, so that might be the intent with your flute. I would think that the flute would be tuned for 430htz in that period of music in America. Riley is certianly a respectabel flute maker of his time! It is interesting the connection to Firth and hall, it was quite a flute making family! I wonder how Riley felt about marring off his two daughters to the apprentices? :really:

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Yikes you’re probably right about the ivory, and I wonder if I mis-heard or mis-remembered what he said. He explained that on the phone, not when I picked it up in person, and maybe the ivory is under the rings. That would make more sense.

I’ve never played a Firth, Hall and Pond that was in good order, so it’s hard for me to say how they compare, but there must be some direct lineage. Jon, next time I mail you something for help, I’m glad to include the Riley for you to examine and play, and compare to the FH&Ps you’ve known. Riley was born in England, but were Firth and Hall? This is a real American story, of immigration and craftsmanship and assimilation. Hmmm the historical movie is already writing itself in my head. Of course there must be a rivalry between Firth and Hall, and the daughters, and I’m sure there’s plenty of room for scandal.

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There are signs of Nicholson influence here too, in both the horn or ivory lined rings and the Long F key.

Two things on the Long F, the sudden kink just after the spring rivet, and the fact the hockeystick touch bends up, not down. Compare it to the same key on my Nicholson’s:

Riley’s successor, William Hall published Nicholson’s School for the Flute in New York. He added this note after the section on instruments:

NB. The publishers of this work would beg to say they are extensively engaged in manufacturing flutes after Nicholsons pattern and would recommend purchacers [sic] to call and examine them.

The bit on instruments is at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/nicholson.html

Terry

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Looking at the time-line that Terry has kindly put together and made available on his web pages, there doesn’t seem to have been much room for scandal, considering the multiple pairings of the Hall and Pond families, along with Firth, over several decades of business endeavors in the music world. More like domestic affinity.
The Wm. Hall and Son flute I had the opportunity to play and examine closely is a little further along from the Riley and the early Hall flutes. I think it had a different internal bore from the early British flutes. It was a four key model, so I cannot address any similarities in the long keys to Nicholson’s. The short keys did have much the same look as the Riley. A very nice playing flute that sat very comfortably at A=440.

Bob