Deepak Ram: bansuri flute performance

Last night the Indian Classical Music Association of Purdue Univeristy presented a program of Indian classical music, with Deepak Ram on bansuri, Anil Datar on Tabla, and un-named on Tampura. One of the perks of living in a university community is that such programs are available. Here is a link to a musical biography of Deepak Ram.
http://www.goldenhorn.com/display.php4?content=artists&page=deepak_ram.html

The duo of Deepak Ram and Anil Datar played for two hours, allowing for a short break. The whole audience sat quietly during that time, held spellbound by the different sounds and rhythms that filled the small auditorium. As a flute player, I was watching closedly how Deepak held such a large flute. As the photo on the link provided shows, Deepak plays left-handed. He also blows into the embouchure hole at a considerable angle, so by rotating his head slightly, he is able to point the flute directly in front of him. This position creates a more relaxing position for both hands and facilitates the use of “piper’s grip” for both hands, although I am sure that the Indians don’t call it piper’s grip. Maybe Talasiga could help us out on that.

The multitude of sounds that Deepak is able to get out a simple-system bamboo flute is simply amazing. At times I thought that I was listening to a clarinet. In one raga he was imitating environmental sounds on the flute. The gentle rain, thunder, and lightening were very apparent. However, the highlight of the performace was the conversations between the bansuri flute and the tabla. These parts of the performance were high energy and a lot of fun. I recommend the playing to Deepak Ram to all.

I regret that I didn’t study flute during my years in India.
I played flutes in my informal hippy way,
but didn’t study. Yes, the dialogue between
the melodic instrument and the tabla is one of the most
delightful things in Indian music.

This has been called the most sublime music in the world.
I believe the melody instrument is Brahman, the creator,
the drone is Vishnu, the preserver, and the tabla is
Shiva, the destroyer. So the music, which is improvisational,
largely, presents the voices of the three principal forces
in nature; it is the song of nature rolling on.

I can’t listen to Indian music a great long while, I
just fall off. Indians can listen to it forever. I suppose if
I had studied an instrument I would like it better. Obviously it’s
great music. I have the same problem with jazz.
I know it’s awesome but my mind drifts away
after awhile.

A story about music:

My Belgian friend, Albert, roamed about India for four years,
starting when he was 20 in 1950. He became so Indian
that people thought he was a Kashmiri–because there are
blond haired, blue eyed Indians, they are the descendants of Alexander
the Great’s troops, I believe.

After four years and thousands of adventures, including working
for a leper colony, being in close proximity to a tiger, and so on,
Albert went to Kabul to visit a friend. The friend played on
his victrola records of Beethoven for Albert. That evening
Albert fell ill. He went to a doctor next day who asked him
what was the matter. Albert started sobbing uncontrollably.
The doctor said: ‘Go home. You are a westerner, you have
stayed here too long.’ Albert returned to Belgium.

Thanks for the concert review, Doug. That sounds like a wonderful night. And the website you’ve linked is very interesting.

Edited to add: check out especially the sound samples here: http://www.goldenhorn.com/display.php4?content=records&page=ghp022.html

ahhhh the magic of the bansuri … beautiful stuff

thanks doug

I have made my comments on this in umpteen posts already but I doubt if anyone paid any attention. I get the impression that some are more intent on devising ways of misunderstanding my posts or crouching radically to allow them to fly over their heads.

Am I a little unwell today? I certainly am.

BTW Doug, which pieces/raagas did he play? Was it an acoustic or miked performance? What tabla rhythms accompanied him? What was the keynote (and the drone)? Did he use the one size flute or did he change over for different pieces? Did any piece move you to inexplicable tears or ineffable joy?

Talasiga, I go through life half-blind and dumb. There was no program, so Deepak announced the pieces, which went in one ear and out the other. It was a miked performance. I do not know what the keynote was. Heck, I don’t know what key I am playing in most of the time; I just start playing. Deepak played mostly on one large flute, but he used a small flute for one folk melody. Yes, the pieces moved me very much, even if I don’t know what key they were in or what they were called. Sorry to be so ignorant.

Thats very nice. Emotion is never ignorant though it can blind. I guess I wanted to know the keynote for his performance to know what flute he was playing. Hariprasad’s students are biased to the B tube and so the keynote would have been E given that the classical bansuri keynote is at XXX OOO = E. However different size bansuris can be, and are used.

Classical bansuri players do not utilise relative tonics or keynotes on the flute. All their pieces are rendered with the keynote from XXX OOO. So, unlike a folk bansuri player like myself, who will play a Dorian Mode melody with its keynote at XXX XXO (as per Irish flute), the classical bansuri player will play a raaga in that mode from XXX OOO ONLY and this necessitates the half holing for the minor third, the natural fourth and the minor seventh intervals. It is really not possible to do this sensitively and at speed on large tubes unless one uses the “pipers’ grip” and body posture evinced by it as is the case with large bansuri players. The bansuri grip also faciltates the “meend” or glissando so fundamental to the exposition of indic music (rather than being an occasional ornament). It is not that one cannot perform glissandi with other grips but the amount required in indic music requires the particular piper’s grip if the music is to be performed WITHOUT neck and shoulder and wrist pains and complications.

It is for this reason thhat when I nextt order a bass flute tube from you I will request an “inline tube” rather than ergonomic. Ergonomics is not just defiined by the the other (the instrument or furniture etc) but also how we relate to it. A pipers’ grip relationship with inline tone holes results in ergonomic outcome in my current opinion.

I hope you enjoy this post. I am feeling a bit better now.

Thanks, Talasiga, for the very interesting post.

One of my Indian graduate students gave me a pair of Indian flutes. I’ve asked, though, and none of them recognize the name “bansuri”. Possibly because the name isn’t used in the Hyderabad area.

I have one of those huge things but had never known how to play it. (Talesiga, your earlier posts must have come before I discovered the list.) Playing it right handed, the stretch of the left arm is certainly easier playing it as described.

I had noticed that what would be C# on a D flute was way flat and had wondered how that was acceptable. (It also seemed way flat on the only trad Bb I’ve tried, BTW.) Playing in what would be G on a D flute makes sense, since an in-tune C is easily achieved in several ways.

– Don

That sounds like it was a wonderful concert, Doug. So far the only bansuri recording I have is of Hariprasad’s nephew, Rakesh, and Talvin Singh on tabla. My only qualm witht he CD is that the drone is electronic (though very subtle and not electronic sounding). I really enjoy it but haven’t delved much further because I would end up wanting to learn to play bansuri and I have too many irons in the fire as it is.

I’m glad that you have recovered, Talasiga, and were able to elucidate some of the mysteries for us. As for how few of us pick up on your bansuri lectures, I think you know that many of us are pre-occupied with the Irish flute (playing them or splitting hairs about which ones to buy). And sometimes your posts are just hard to follow, even for those of us who are aggressive readers. Other times you are “unwell” and I choose to ignore them for my own health and perhaps others here do as well.

But back to the topic, have you listened to Rakesh? What do you think? If you want more info on the CD I mentioned, it’s called Vira. It does appear as he is appealing to the New Age market a little (or maybe that’s how he is being marketed). And how about Deepak Ram?

Also, thanks to Jim for another one of your parable-esque stories.

Cheers,
Aaron

I don’t know which Hyderabad you are talking about. There are two of them in the South Asian sub-continent, one in Pakistan and one which is capital of Andhra Pradesh in south central India.

While there are umpteen languages on the sub-continent, the north indian term for the bamboo flute “bansuri” is fairly universally recognised. Most north indian languages belong to the indo-european sourced language group (being derived from Sanskrit). Even urdu the language of Pakistan is Sanskritic in terms of grammar, syntax etc. It just has a greater load of words of arabic and persian origin. Telugu, the languuage of Andhra Pradesh is a Dravidian language. However, Hindi is now the national language and “bansuri” and “bansi” should be recognised down south.

Perhaps its the way you pronounced “bansuri”. The written form in roman script that we are using could be misleading for non indic speakers. The N in the word is a nasal N a bit like the french canadian pronunciiattion of the N in the burglar of Banff. The u stands for oo. And you have to roll that R. But don’t roll it as much as a Scottish Highlander would. Maybe you might find “bansi” a little easier to pronounce in a recognisable way.

In the south they use “venu”, a classical Sanskrit word for flutes in general.


I had noticed that what would be C# on a D flute was way flat and had wondered how that was acceptable. (It also seemed way flat on the only trad Bb I’ve tried, BTW.) Playing in what would be G on a D flute makes sense, since an in-tune C is easily achieved in several ways.

A lot of bansis are made with just intonation tone holes with
XXX OOO being the tonic and the fifth interval at XXX XXX being perfectly in tune.
Could this be the explanation? I don’t know because this is not my area (technical stuff). Perhaps a maker could comment on just versus equal notation as it applies to Irish flutes?

I have not experienced any substantial tuning problems when I play my small bansuris with orchestral, folk or indic musicians regardless of which tonehole is the tonic.

If you read my posts you would see that I am predominantly an Irish flute player ( ie a player of Irish flute) and my words on the bansuri pipers’ grip were made in discussions on its application to Irish flute and not during some alleged bansuri lecture.

I know something of bansuris because I play the smaller ones (F tube, soprano A tube, F# tube, G# tube, G tube etc) rather than the larger than Irish flute sized ones. I also know and play with westerners who have been trained in India on the bass bansuris. I am currently in a process of changing my grip habits on account of the latter exposure. Pipers grip on all inline tonehole flutes, small and large. It is a very rewarding experiment.

I am quite well today. Thanks

Talasiga, thanks for clarifying.

Yes, my Indian students who are from Hyderabad are from the one in India. Yes, I pronounced “bansuri” with a soft “a” and “n” and a lightly tapped, not rolled, r. But I’ll take your word for it that it’s the correct term for the instrument in the picture. It surprised me that my students didn’t know it. I didn’t intend to attack your expertise.

– Don Varvel

Even though I am no expert on music theory, I can offer some comments about the tuning of flutes. For the pvc simple-system flutes that I make, before I had an electronic tuner, I referenced the fundamental pitch of the flute to a Yamaha keyboard , and the remaining notes of the scale I pitched by ear (Just intonation). People kept writing me that my flutes didn’t agree with their tuners, so I decided to be more conventional and use a tuner, even though the equal-temperment didn’t sound as good to me.

I have no experience in tuning conical-bore flutes. However, I did do an experiment this last weekend. I listened to the four CD’s of “Wooden Flute Obsession 1 & 2”, which, as most of you know, contains the playing of many of the best Irish flute musicians in the world. With regard to pitch, however, without singling out any musicians in particular, to my ears a number of the tunes sounded “off” to me. I am not saying that the playing is, in fact, “out of tune”; it merely sounds that way to me, that’s all. I also make the assumption that the same players that are a problem for me will most likely please a majority of listeners, and that for traditional music, especially music played very fast, some lattitude can be given to the performers with regard to pitch accuracy. The following paragraphs are from my “Flute Buyer’s Guide”. Again, I know that I am not an authority on this subject. I offer it to stimulate discussion.

A Word About Tuning: In western music (as opposed to world music) the octave is divided into twelve notes or half tones. Although it is contrary to what a musically sensitive person hears, to simplify the tuning of instruments (especially keyboard instruments) it was decided to make the interval between these twelve half-tone notes exactly the same size, with each of the half-tone intervals being further broken down into 100 units or cents. Therefore, the octave is divided into 1200 cents, with half-tone intervals being 100 cents and whole-tone intervals being 200 cents. This system of intonation is called equal-temperment, and it is the standard for all electronic tuners, except for the more expensive tuners that allow tuning to the exact frequency.

Human beings have an innate sense of relationship, both visually and aurally. For example, without using any measuring devices we are able to divide a pie into eight equal pieces. Similarly, with regard to music we can sense certain basic musical intervals in the octave. It turns out that the basic intervals that we sense are related to rational numbers or fractions. The simplest relationship is the octave interval (twice the frequency) or 2:1 ratio. The perfect fifth interval has a ratio of 3:2, and the fourth interval has a ration of 4:3. As the integers become larger, it becomes more difficult to sense the interval. For example, the interval of a seventh is 15:8. A system of intonation for intervals arrived at in this fashion is called Just intonation. However, with Just intonation the intervals are not all the same size, and in the past this caused many technical problems in tuning, so this system was abandoned in favor of equal-temperment.

Our current equal-temperment system of intonation is obviously convenient, but this convenience has been bought at a price. The price is that the scale doesn’t sound right to a musically sensitive person. For example, it is nearly impossible for a musician to tune a piano, because the “correct” notes don’t sound exactly right. In fact, three of the eight notes in a one-octave diatonic, equal-temperment scale vary between 14 and 19 cents from the same notes in the musician’s scale of Just intonation. Also, as an orchestra tunes by ear to an A440 pitch on the oboe, the string section tunes their instruments by ear (no tuners) by listening for perfect fifths between the strings, and somehow the whole orchestra comes together and sounds in-tune to the listener. But actually there are many variations in pitch that are not perceived by the listener. Because of variations in attack strength and embouchure, the side-blown flute is especially vulnerable to frequency fluctuations, and frequency fluctuations up to 4 per cent have been observed, even among concert musicians. I can play my Irish flute in front of an electronic tuner and have the needle swing from 20 cents below to 20 cents above standard pitch just by the way I blow and the way I shape my lips (embouchure).

And lastly, quoting from the classic book “Music, Sound, and Sensation” by Fritz Winckel: “Although completely pure intonation is most difficult on the flute, it is also of least importance, for the (flute) tone is poor in overtone content, and a slight distuning can have a positive equalizing effect.” In other words it may be a good thing to be slightly off-pitch. And that is my main thesis and purpose for writing the above comments about tuning. I believe that some people have unreasonable expectations about pitch and intonation. They think that their $20 electronic tuner set to equal-temperment is the gold standard and that any variation from “dead-on” pitch accuracy is not acceptable. To the contrary, my attitude with regard to flute performance is to lay perfectionism aside and accept some variations in intonation as inescapable and perhaps even a good thing.

:boggle: I have not seen anything you wrote or I wrote that would indicate that you attacked me or that I felt attacked by you.

That certain Indian students don’t know what the flute is called doesn’t surprise me. I have an Irish lady friend who knows all the Irish dance steps, claims Danny Boy is THE song of her matrilineal line, speaks Gaelic BUT reckons she does not know what an Uillean Pipe is and told me she had nver heard of a bodhran. (Admittedly she emigratted from Dublin as a child in the 60’s.)

BTW, what is it you teach?

I teach computer science at a small university.

I have two bansuri[s?] which are approximately (but not exactly) an octave apart. Both are marked G# at the bottom and C# at the top, and the bottom note is approximately G# on each. The smaller one plays a pretty good G# major scale, although the second register is perhaps a bit flat to the first. The whopper has a leading tone (A## or G) that is way flat, although a good scale can be played starting with C#. I can’t say much more about the intonation because I find it such a struggle to play the thing at all. Interestingly, on both instruments all the finger holes are cut on a slant, giving the effect of undercutting the “upstream” edge, which will tend to get the octaves better in tune.

In flats, of course, that’s Ab and Db, but that’s not the marking.

They are some sort of bamboo or cane but the bark removed. Apparently there’s a node at the top and bottom of the big one and 32" between nodes (slightly under 34" total) with an inside diameter of about 1-3/16". I’ve found A. donax (woodwind reed cane) of that diameter but never that far between nodes.

The big one is marked “BASS FLUTE / BLACK 1 C# / KORG 440” at the top. The small one is marked BLACK 1 C# in about the same place and in a circle, “RIYAZ & SONS / KORG 440 / INDIA”.

I believe it is a characteristic of nearly all low flutes that the all-holes-open note is flat. It has something to do with having a hole that can be covered by human fingers and having a forked C in tune. If it is to be used as a leading tone it should be a bit sharp of equal temperament, and even a third shouldn’t be that flat. A C key or thumb hole can fix it. Apparently the alternative used in Indian music is not to play that note!

I hope that satisfies everyone’s curiosity.

– Don