Surely you don’t all play your roll segments of equal duration.
Actually I do, so I do.
By the way my definition of, say, a G roll is G-G-G in duration. (There is another “short” roll which would be G-G in duration, and it has a different execution).
If you were playing, for example, a (double) jig, each note would have an equal duration: 1-2-3-1-2-3 etc, so therefore each segment of the roll should have equal duration. It is actually more technically difficult to play with this strict rhythm, but it definately adds to the overall rhythm of a tune.
Rolls are often the part of a tune that causes a beginner’s rhythm to get a bit hairy (usually through speeding up), and it is because they don’t give each segment an equal duration.
Do I? Don’t I? never thought about that… (I know it sounds pretty sad for a piper)
I think I don’t though. I probably tap with the note under the rolled one too fast.
What I try to do is just being in time with the whole roll in the tune, not with every single part of it. I see the importance of playing each segment of the same duration however and I’m surely going to practice it in future.
Do you play rolls faster or slower according to the time of the tune?
I’ve noticed that when I’m learning a tune fairly slowly I also play ornamentation of the same time. Is that the same with you?
Yeah, I always play my rolls at the rhythm of the tune. If you are playing a tune with 3 G’s for example, you could just play 3 G’s with a cut between the 1st G and the 2nd G, and another cut between the 2nd and 3rd. That gives you 3 G’s, each of equal duration.
An alternative would be to play 3 G’s in staccatto style, stopping the chanter after each, but again the duration between the start of each G should be the same length.
A roll is yet another alternative to playing 3 G’s, so each segemnt should be of equal duration.
When practicing rolls, take them very slowly at first, concentrating on the precise timing of the cut and tap. Then try a simple tune with some rolls, but start the tune as slowly as you need to play it so that you can comfortably play the roll at the same rhythm as the rest of the tune.
I believe the rhythm of Irish music is the source of its beauty. There is nothing wrong with playing fast, so long as the rhythm is consistant. But beginners often fall into the speed trap, and rolls are often the souce of the trap. So when learning a tune, identify the part that you find most technically difficult (roll, triplet, etc) and play the tune slowly enough so you don’t need to change rhythm to play the difficult phrase.
Also avoid the paradoxical trap of rushing the part you are unsure of! Discipline yourself to get the rhythm right, and now you are playing music!
e.g. If you are rolling in the 2nd 8ve, you may sometimes need to squeeze into the note you are rolling so that you don’t drop the 8ve, so you have to either start the note early and play regular segments, or start the note bang on with the ‘squeeze’ and fit the roll into the time you have left, or run the roll into the next notes space, whichever, you won’t be able to be as a note on a page (who’d wanna be?) Or, as I have heard Keenan do, is to push the roll onto an off beat. Or slide into a roll.
I believe it is what young people today refer to as ‘swing’. But them Cats is krazeee!
You play rolls in time with the tune. For example, a simple short roll fits the space of a quarter note, so it becomes two eighth notes (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): cut, note, tap. A simple long roll fits the space of a dotted quarter note, so it becomes three eighth notes in the roll (tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value): note, cut, note, tap.
Hope that helps. You really ought to get the Heather Clarke tutor to answer these basic questions.
I think you are probably being smart, but will respond anyways because you bring up a good point.
Obviously you still have the same amount of time in the tune, so you would reduce the length of your taps to fit the time. So if you took one of the above mentioned taps at one eighth note, and turned it into two taps, the two taps would have to be a sixteenth note each (if you are playing them equally). Either way, you only have the space of an eighth note to fill in the tune, otherwise you have to start trimming the length of the notes on either side of your ornament.
I call this a good point because there is piper I know (no names) who perennially adds an extra sixteenth or thirty-second note to the tune every time he adds any ornament. It is subtle at first, but he slowly drifts off the beat, driving everyone else in the session nuts, because they can’t quite tell at what point he is going off.
While this description matches Ms. Clarke’s, a more comprehensive look at the timing of rolls is Irish Union Pipes by Denis Brooks, and additional insight is found in Dance Music of Willie Clancy by Pat Mitchell and The Piping of Patsy Touhey by Mitchell and Small. These last two are good because you can follow along with the recordings (if you have them).
Pipers of all levels would benefit from being able to distinguish among the various approaches.
I agree that a cut has no value, but likewise, the tap should have no time value either. It should be an instantaneous action to distinguish between the second and third segments of the roll. The finger(s) should literally bounce off the chanter as soon as they hit, and not dwell on the chanter, as this would stop the note.
Hope that helps. You really ought to get the Heather Clarke tutor to answer these basic questions.
I actually studied on it five years ago when I started playing the pipes.
Just to avoid that some of you will write a lot explaining general piping techniques I should specify that I’m not a beginner. Ok, I’m not a master piper… but already knew what you wrote, apart from direct answers to my questions on D slide and Cnat and # rolls. That’s because I never had a teacher or met someone who plays the pipes well and could teach me. look at my location and you’ll find the reason why!
Thanks a lot anyway for all your clues and kindness!
If I was a newbie I would have found this forum and you lads very gentle and kind (not like “oh, a beginner… why wasteing my time helping him..”) .
Now,
Quote:
(tap = 1 eighth note, cut has no value)
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I agree that a cut has no value, but likewise, the tap should have no time value either.
Indeed they have values. If a note is being played has a time value. Would it be shorter or longer but it has one.
The finger(s) should literally bounce off the chanter as soon as they hit, and not dwell on the chanter, as this would stop the note.
that’s his value! In a normal reel time cuts and taps would have an 1/36 value or even less. We’re actually talking about giving them the same duraton or not.
Also, my question on if you’re playing ornamentation of the same time as the tune was referred to that.
Do you play cuts and taps with the same duration either if you’re playing at 120 bpm or 60 bpm?
Or, if you were playing ornamentation at 120 bpm would then be the duration of a cut proportional or not to one in a tune played at 70 bpm (i.e.)?
cheers,
Gio.
(please tell me if you don’t understand because you know that english is not my mother language…)
Gio, if you can tell me that a cut or a tap is 1/36 or whatever, fair play to yah!
Sometimes there is way too much emphasis on analysing details to the 1/36th degree. This is meaningless: who has that level of control over their fingers where they can say “OK: in this tune I need to play a 1/42 cut?”.
Please realise that I am not saying the cut or the tap is a note: I have said they separate notes. The notes are all equal duration.
If you play a slow air, your cut will be at the same speed as if you play a fast reel. The cut (or tap) is only differentiating the 2 notes it lies between. It has to happen at a precise moment to maintain rhythm, but you don’t lengthen or shorten it based on the tune’ speed. The tune’s speed dictates duration of the note on either side of the cut/tap.
totokos,
When you play cuts, you play notes.
Probably “less important” than the three notes of the note being rolled, but they’re notes.
Considering them without value, that’s meaningless.
who has that level of control over their fingers where they can say “OK: in this tune I need to play a 1/42 cut?”.
let’s talk about this: nobody. And nobody will need to change the duration of a cut.
(When I write tunes on my pc I rarely write cuts but when I do I use to write them as a 1/32 and it works…)
Gio, do you understand the concept of “grace notes”? When writing music, a grace note has no value, but steals its time value from other notes. For a cut note, the length would be 1/64, or if you prefer, a hemi demi semi quaver. I think the point you should understand is that you should not hear the tone of the cut. It should be the briefest break in the sound column within the chanter. The cut is not a musical note in itself, but a percussive effect.
Gio, do you understand the concept of “grace notes”?
yeah, thanks.
sorry guys… but that’s a freakin’ note. No matter if it steals time value from other notes, no matter giving it whatever time duration, no matter if you write it or not, no matter if you do it or not… that’s a note God!
Agree that giving it a precise value (like 1/32 instead of 1/64 and so on) it’s bullshit though… :roll:
It’s funny… they have this same discussion over on the whistle board all the time. (Really)
The common concensus (at least it seems to be to me) is that grace notes and irish ornamentation are not the same thing (and in fact are not supposed to sound the same). (By grace notes I mean as exemplified in so called classical music.) The idea is that, yes, grace notes have a duration and you are supposed to hear a definite tone, but with ornamentation (taps and cuts) you are not supposed to hear a definite tone. This means that they should be very, very short in duration.
As was mentioned above, they are rhythmic, not melodic, whereas grace notes are melodic, not strictly rhythmic.
Gio, you may be working in isolation, but there is a lot of good instructional material available to you. Cuts and taps are explained and demonstrated on the following:
Mad4Trad Uilleann Pipes CD-ROM, with Sean Potts
NPU Tutor videos (3 volumes)
They are also explained in the following books:
Leo Rowsome Tutor in The Leo Rowsome Collection of Jigs and Reels
The Piping of Pasty Tuohey
The Master’s Touch
The Dance Music of Willie Clancy
Denis Brook’s Uilleann Pipes Workbook
HR Clarke’s New Approach to Uilleann Pipes
With so much good information, and your isolated circumstances, it would be helpful for you to avail yourself of all the information you can get.
Ok, I’m not a master piper… but already knew what you wrote, apart from direct answers to my questions on D slide and Cnat and # rolls. That’s because I never had a teacher or met someone who plays the pipes well and could teach me. look at my location and you’ll find the reason why!
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