Cryo-Whistles

Whistle
1

I saw a special a few years back on companies that would cryogenically freeze things (slowly) and then (slwoly) bring them back to ambient tempertaure. They would then test the properties of the thing frozen. Apparently bringing the objects to near absolute zero (however cold liquid nitrogen is) aligned the molecules more precisely.

They did this to a trombone, and the slide was much smoother. They also did it to a razor and it lasted three times longer than a regular razor.

I was wondering what would happen to an all-metal whistle if this was done to it. Thoughts?

John Mac

2

I think the whistle would last three times longer too.

3

I think your lips would freeze to it.

4

Some brass players are having their instruments cryogenically frozen. Supposedly, the freezing relieves stresses in the metal and the resulting horns are supposed to sound better.

Not having any personal experience with this I can’t testify to its effectiveness, but I do have enough to know that we musicians are a wierd lot, often affected by “golden ear syndrome.”

Perhaps because my father was from Missouri, I tend not to believe even my own ears unless I can prove something with a double-blind test.

There are thousands of guitarists who claim they can hear the difference between normal and oxygen free copper cords – but I don’t know of a single one who has been able to prove it in a double-blind test!

John

5

Next time someone asks about making your own whistles, one of you whistle-makers has just got to add this to the process.

6

I relieve stress in my whistles by pouring good Irish single-malt through them prior to shipment. :slight_smile:
Bill Whedon

7

On 2002-10-23 12:54, OutOfBreath wrote:
Some brass players are having their instruments cryogenically frozen. Supposedly, the freezing relieves stresses in the metal and the resulting horns are supposed to sound better.

There are thousands of guitarists who claim they can hear the difference between normal and oxygen free copper cords – but I don’t know of a single one who has been able to prove it in a double-blind test!

Both of these remarks are interesting. The normal way to stress-relieve something is to HEAT it. It takes energy to relieve the stresses, and there’s less energy at lower temps. I’m not doubting it does something, just don’t understand it.

And, oxygen-free copper is extremely soft – I would be surprised if it would handle the tension in a guitar string. Is it just wound around a steel or brass/bronze core? I could always tell the difference between a nickel-wound and bronze-wound string; I wouldn’t be surprised if OFHC copper is even warmer.

Charlie

8

So, in theory you could cryo-freeze a Generation whistle and when brought to ambient temperature you might actually be able to get good tone out of it (providing that the process doesn’t damage the plastic head)? I have a feeling that a Cryo-Generation whistle would cost more than a Cillian O’Briain improved whistle.
Cheers,
Aaron

9

Och Bill! Ah’m sure that was a wee typo o’ yers! It’s nay the irish whiskey that warms oor herts, bu the scottish wee single malt drams! Och aye!

10

I found a website of a company, Onecryo, that will do this for you. Here’s a link http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/otherapp-music.htm and here’s a portion of what their site says:

Brass Musical Instruments and Cryogenic Tempering
Cryogenics : Make Your Music Come To Life!




Cryogenic Tempering has been hailed as the single greatest advancement for brass musical instruments in the past 50 years.
By treating the brass musical instruments at ultra cold temperatures, inherent stresses within the structure of the brass are released. This allows your instrument to play cleaner and perform the way it was designed.

Brass instruments respond exceptionally well to the cryogenic process, providing a more pleasant, rounder resonant tone.
Guitar, Piano and Violin strings sound better, stay in tone longer, and last longer.
Valves feel better and smoother.
Horns have a smoother, rounder sound and are freer blowing with improved pitch centering.

John Mac

11

On 2002-10-23 12:54, OutOfBreath wrote:
Some brass players are having their instruments cryogenically frozen. Supposedly, the freezing relieves stresses in the metal and the resulting horns are supposed to sound better.

A number of outdoorsmen also have knifes and gun barrels treated this way. A few tests from high-end manufacturers, however, have shown no measurable stress relief, and only marginal improvement in wear resistance.

From Shilen, a world class rifle barrel maker:

“If you have heard that the cryogenic treatment stress relieves steel, this is false. We have measured the residual stress in 4140 and 416 steel with a process called x-ray diffraction. After much R&D, we have not been able to measure any changes in molecular stress after cryo treatment. For this reason we do not endorse the cryogenic process, but we can safely say that it is not detrimental to the barrel either.”

12

As I mentioned in the tech talk 2 post, some flute companies (Powell comes to mind) offer cryogenic freezing for their headjoints, which supposedly results in an improvement in sound.
Micah

13

I once dated a girl who claimed that if she froze a brand new pair of nylons (in a household deep freeze) before she first wore them they would last “three times longer” than if she wore them straight out of the package.

Also, liquid nitrogen is nowhere near as cold as absolute zero:
Liquid Nitrogen = 77K or -196°C
Absolute Zero = 0K or -263°C

14

Well… I’ve got access to a large amount of liquid nitrogen and -80 deg Celsius freezers… Who wants to send me their Overton? Maybe I could try my Cheiftan high E, certainly can’t hurt it. Just have to knock the dirt out from using it as a tent stake. :slight_smile: Actually it’s not that bad. Wanna trade anyone?

Mark V.

15

wonder what happens to the delrin in the Burke fipple?

16

On 2002-10-23 17:12, The Weekenders wrote:
wonder what happens to the delrin in the Burke fipple?

Send it and I’ll find out. Now I have a Burke myself but it would have to be used as a control you see. Scientific method and all that. I would guess nothing good and probably something bad. I had a plastic mountain bike brake lever snap one day when riding in to work. Granted I shouldn’t have been riding in -40 deg F weather with a -80 wind chill, but the car wouldn’t start and I used to do it in college all winter long…


Mark V

17

On 2002-10-23 15:44, amar wrote:
Och Bill! Ah’m sure that was a wee typo o’ yers! It’s nay the irish whiskey that warms oor herts, bu the scottish wee single malt drams! Och aye!

Och, nay, Amar, ‘twas no typo, atall! I kinna waste e’en the tiniest drop o’ me Laphroaigh, an’ th’ whistles kinna tell th’ difference! :slight_smile:

18

On 2002-10-23 11:36, goesto11 wrote:
I saw a special a few years back on companies that would cryogenically freeze things (slowly) and then (slwoly) bring them back to ambient tempertaure. They would then test the properties of the thing frozen. Apparently bringing the objects to near absolute zero (however cold liquid nitrogen is) aligned the molecules more precisely.

They did this to a trombone, and the slide was much smoother. They also did it to a razor and it lasted three times longer than a regular razor.

I was wondering what would happen to an all-metal whistle if this was done to it. Thoughts?

John Mac

I,m sure it would result in a better sounding whistle if it were done.Whistles are subject to extremes of temperature change during shipping which may result in slight tuning discrepency on arrival to the customer.There is no way to prove this, but I have read in previous threads of cases where whistles have been returned to the maker for correction when they were certain it was in tune when it left the workshop.The other day I noticed that my favourite tuned generation was noticeably flat on the E hole and a slight tweek was needed to correct it.This is also what led to the metal fatigue inquiry as I was certain it was perfectly in tune a year ago.I also discovered in dismay on a gig the other night that all my mouth harps had hit the deck tuning-wise after remaining too long on a heated floor..so there,s definately a thermal connection.Cryogenics looks set to revolutionise instrument making! :slight_smile: MIKE

19

Regarding the use of cryogenics in knifemaking (that’s one of my two main hobbies - the other is hot glass working), I might be able to put a bit of information into the mix.

Most of the high-quality blades won’t benefit from cryo-freezing after you buy them. Why? Because that was a part of the initial heat-treating in the first place! Doing it again won’t actually give you anything that wasn’t there the first time.

Now, why does it matter at all? Wayne Goddard, a mastersmith in the American Bladesmith Society, did a series of articles about the subject of crygenics in knives. My information is condensed from his. If you want to get the straight scoop, check out his book The Wonder of Knifemaking.

When a knife blade is hardened, it is heated to critical temperature (the temp from which it has to be rapidly cooled in order to become fully hard), then quenched. The thing that makes steel hard is the interaction of iron and carbon atoms on a molecular level. When at critical temp, the carbon goes into solution, forming austenite (a particular molecular shape, with its own properties, just as graphite and diamond are almost pure carbon, but the molecular shape makes all the difference in the properties). Cooling it rapidly causes the autenite to form Martensite, the very hard form of steel. But some of the austenite won’t turn into martensite. The more alloy elements added to the steel, the greater the retained austenite.

Cryogenic cooling causes the retained austenite to convert to martensite. The steel is then almost fully as hard as it is possible for that particular alloy to get. This does not actually relieve stresses in steel. It creates a few more, which are easily removed through Tempering.

Cryogenic quenching has been used in knives for a couple of decades at least. It really does help to get the best performance out of a given steel. I suspect that gun barrels are less affected, as they don’t depend on a truly uniform (talking molecular level, not inch level) hardness in order to function properly, and knives do.

As regards whistles, I don’t know why the sub-zero treatments would have any effect, but I am not prepared to say they wouldn’t. The stress-relief thing sounds sort of far-fetched to me. Still, without a good test of the effects of this process, I am not willing to commit to an opinion.

-Patrick

20

On 2002-10-23 18:33, mike.r wrote:

I,m sure it would result in a better sounding whistle if it were done.Whistles are subject to extremes of temperature change during shipping which may result in slight tuning discrepency on arrival to the customer.. . .

Do you think more extremes will make things better? If you want to keep the dimensions of something, you rough it out, then stress relieve it (by heating it not cooling it), then do the final machining (usually just grinding and chasing threads) after it’s been stress relieved.

I would volunteer to do this with one of my Burkes, but the thermal expansion of metal is much greater than that of the fipple plug, and something would likely give way.

Charlie