Hi all, I’ve got a question about cross-fingerings on keyless flute.
Like many hapless noobs, I currently play a somewhat crappy but basically functional McNeela starter flute. (I recently bit the bullet and put in an order with Copley and Boegli for a blackwood keyless. 8-10 months to go…) On my flute the (first octave) cross-fingerings available are:
Cnat – OXXOXX (If you want it to be in tune. OXXOOO is quite sharp)
Bflat – XOXXXX (A bit sharp but workable)
There is not even a semblance of a Gsharp; XXOXXX gives you something probably closer to an A than to a Gsharp, and no amount of lipping down will ever get you there. It also doesn’t half-hole well. (I don’t THINK it’s user error; I’ve tried many times. But of course it could be.)
Fnat half-holes easily.
Is this similar to what you’d get with a higher quality flute, or is this particular to the crappiness of mine? Particularly curious to hear from those of you who play Copley&Boegli’s, to get a sense of what I might be able to expect. S’pose I could always just ask Dave, but I’m curious to hear about other flutes too.
I don’t currently have the budget for a decent keyed flute. I decided to spend my $1000 on build quality rather than keys. Also I play with a Piper’s Grip (due to left wrist issues with standard grip), so a fully keyed flute probably wouldn’t work for me anyway. Who knows, maybe someday I’ll get a 3 or 4 keyed flute with only “short” keys that don’t interfere with where my fingers need to go to extend across the holes.
For G# give the following a try XXO XOX or XXO XXO
Have you tried OXO XXX for Cnat? I prefer to use OXX OOO on my flutes even if it’s a bit off, but OXO XXX is nice for C-D runs/ornamentation.
Definitely ask Dave Copely about his flute specifically, as there are often idiosycracies on specific notes.
Some flutes will respond better to cross fingering and half holing, but each has their advantages and draw backs. From my understanding, smaller holed models will have some advantage to cross fingering, while larger holed models will obviously fare better for those notes which are accessible with half-holing.
I play a Copley flute (although it’s 8 key, I frequently use cross-fingering and half-holing). So…
Cnat - oxx ooo is quite good. oxo xxx is perhaps a tad better
Bb - why not just half-hole it? The second hole up top is large enough to cleanly half-hole.
Fnat - half-hole for sure
G# - I always half-holed that when I didn’t have a key. G# is always hard, though.
D#/Eb - Half-holing is nearly impossible…but it’s the only option even possibe.
Cross-fingering is very dependent on the particular flute. I had a small-holed Noy flute that cross-fingered so well that I bought a foot with an Eflat key, which made it fully chromatic. The Bleazey Rudall, another small-holed flute, and Rudalls based on the famous Chris Norman flute are pretty good, but I’ve never come across another modern classical-romantic-type flute that cross fingers as well as the Noy. The Copley has medium-size holes; I’ve never tried cross-fingering either of mine, but I doubt they’ll be more chromatic than yours. They do half-hole the Bflat and Fnat well
In general, though, the smaller the holes, the better the cross-fingering, and the bigger the holes, the better the half-holing.
Chas’s solution should be the norm: Irish flute players should buy one-key flutes with cross-fingering instead of all-keyless flutes.
On my 1840 R&R, I much prefer the OXO XXX,k fingering for my C-natural, although the C-nat using C-nat key is quite good and it’s useful when staying in the first register. I find that the little triplet runs that cross C-Nat pop just a little better.
But even fully-keyed flutes are variable in preferred fingerings. My R&R prefers the C-nat key for playing C#.
Assuming we’re talking low octave my various flutes over the years (c1830 Rudall & Rose, c1860 Pratten) could only do two useable crossfingered notes
oxx|oox C natural (I use that lower-hand ring finger as an anchor finger for notes above F#)
xox|xxx B flat (have to lip it down a bit, or blow it softly)
In the 2nd octave ditto but different fingerings.
I don’t have trouble half-holing D sharp, F natural, or G sharp. It’s merely a matter of doing it a lot.
Now it’s true that when I was playing 8-key flutes I used all 8 keys, but my initial “starter flute” was keyless and during that time I got proficient half-holing a chromatic scale, which has been transferred onto whistle.
Hi all, I was the OP on this thread, figured I’d follow up some months later. Thanks all for the replies and good insight!
I finally got my Copley flute about a month ago (which I absolutely love, but that’s another topic). I did get hold of Dave during the intervening months and he said it probably wouldn’t be much different than my old flute. In reality, I’m finding it does cross-finger a LITTLE bit better. I’d say,
C nat OXX OOO pretty solid
Bb XOX XXX pretty solid
G# XXO XXX way sharp, but not quite as much as the McNeela Pratten-ish thing I was playing.
I own a Copley as well, and I have to agree with those who say OXO XXX is better for Cnat.
On my Copley, OXX OOO is perfectly in tune, but it’s a bit muffled (as it is on basically every flute I’ve tried). OXO XXX is slightly sharp, but it sounds WAY better in my opinion - louder, stronger, and the same timbre as the surrounding notes. Sure, it’s sharp, but over time you learn to “blow it flat” so it ends up perfectly in tune.
As for other cross-fingerings, I find them all (including B flat) far too muffled to be usable. I’ve never played a flute that had good cross-fingered notes other than Cnat.
Low whistle is different for some reason. On my wife’s Carbony, I can get cross-fingered Cnat, Bb, and even G# in both octaves (XXO XOX for the second octave), and they all sound pretty good.
Tking, tstermitz, Cyberknight, et al.– I had made a mental note to myself to reply to this once I’d had a chance to try it a while.
Thanks for the tip about OXO XXX Cnat. You all are right, that really does sound better. It was too sharp on my old flute to be usable, but on my Copley, it’s close enough that a bit of “rolling in” will get it there. I also like how you only have to add the left hand ring finger to get from there to the vented 2nd octave D. That’s slick. I’m mostly using OXO XXX for Cnat these days.
Glad you resurfaced this thread. Was having some very similar questions. Particularly in trying to find a G#…and in finding the elusive “flatter” Cnat. Good info here!
Low whistle is (almost always) cylindrical and thinner walled than a traditional Irish flute. Half holing on a Doug Tipple flute is pretty easy, too. Thinner walls and cylindrical, requiring larger holes, are easier to half hole on.