I was listening to Joanie Madden, and it sounds like she uses cranns with her top fingers too. Is that what she uses, or is it a similar technique? Same with Kevin Crawford, I just can’t figure it out.
Can you give a specific example - i.e., an album and track, and the approximate time in the track? I’ve studied some of Joanie’s and Kevin’s recordings very closely, and don’t recall hearing any left hand cranns. But, for example, double cuts and bounces can produce a similar effect.
I don’t know whether Joanie M and Kevin C use this technique but I remember starting a thread about it… 7 years ago as a search revealed!
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/crans-accidental-discovery/2079/1
MTGuru, The Morning Night Cap, and Island Patty has some ornamentation that I have never heard by K.C. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAyENIYI328 This is the one from J.M., during the reel, it looks and sounds like she might be using a crann on the top hand. I think I do the double cut already, but could you explain it to me? Is it where you tap it twice in a row real fast? Also, have you ever heard of a triple roll?
That is an interesting thread Stevie, thanks for that.
Also, during that video around 1:00 and 1:23 in the slow airs, it sounds like she is using the top cranns. 
I’ll take a look!
Steve: Nice thread from you and Peter. 
OK, here’s a close ABC transcription of the first part:
X:1
T:Cailín na Gruaige Báine (Fair-Haired Girl)
R:Air
S:Joanie Madden & Mary Coogan, TG4 Geantraí 137012 (2007)
S:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAyENIYI328
N:Played in Ab on Eb whistle
Z:MTGuru for Chiff & Fipple
M:3/4
K:G
“Freely"D{A}D E/F/|F{c}G2 {c}A/A/{c}Bc|{de}d4 {A}JB/{c}B/G|f{f}Jg2"A”{aga}g {e}Jf/-~f/d/e/|{^d}Je4 {G}JA{c}A/A/|
d"B"{c}d e"C"{aeg}e/d/ cA/A/|{c}Bc {G}JA{c}A/{GB}G/ F/G/{c}A/F/|F{A}G- G4-|G6|]
Notes
A - Double tap or “bounce” on g with T3 finger
B - Vented d fingering oxxxxx, cut with T3 finger
C - Double cut with B1/B2 or T3/B1 fingers
What you’re hearing is the double tap / “bounce” / short trill on the 3rd note of the 3rd measure (marked “A”). This could also be executed as a double cut with T1/T2, which would sound like a “pseudo-crann”. But that would give two different upper notes - I checked this on my aluminum Burke, which is what Joanie is playing. In this case, she’s playing the same upper note, indicating a bounce.
Of course, this is an air, so ignore the exact note values. If you play the transcription in strict 3/4 time, you get the basic melody. But some of the 1/16 notes are held as long or longer than the 1/8 notes. Caveat whistler. 
Please, MTGuru, what is a ‘J’ in abc?
I searched “The ABC Music standard 2.0 (draft IV, 14/8/2003)” and found no reference. I also looked in the 1.6 version (comes with ABC explorer) to no avail.
TIA
It’s a upward +slide+, Phill. If you look in the 2.0 Draft Standard under Decorations, after the complete list of ++ symbols, you’ll see it listed as an extension. It is assigned to “J” by default in abcm2ps, and recognized by the Concertina.net converter (which uses abcm2ps as its engine).
For close transcriptions, I also notate the starting point of the slide as a grace note before the slide. In PostScript or PDF output, you see both the grace note slur, and the slide mark above the slur.
Hope that helps!
Yes, thanks as always. My text search for J missed it as it is not assigned a J in the draft. Thats my something learnt for today. Back to tootlin’.
Thanks for that infor MT
I stumbled across that ABC Convert-A-Matic earlier this afternoon. It is awesome. I have always been good about reading music, but sometimes my brain scrambles the rhythm, so I prefer to simply hear it.
I would post the link to it in case others haven’t check it out, but not sure if I am allowed to link elsewhere (other than YouTube stuff)
Matt
No problem … the link is well-known.
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
When pasting in, always be sure to include a required X: header line at the top. The actual number can be anything. And for printed output, use the PDF download. The on-screen GIF display is small, and doesn’t show the details well.
I use ABCExplorer - free, open-source software. Is it generally known on this forum? (only 14 references in search, two of them mine…; search for convert-a-matic does not seem to work).
Converts ABC to Postscript, prints nicely. Helps organise your files (good if you have TOAD). Plays your TUNES 
. Lets you edit.
And it works even when your internet connection is down (I live in a rural location where the electrons sometimes go very slowly).
Maybe you’re talking about double-cut rolls.
It’s a technique that I used to hear a lot of uilleann pipers do when they played whistle, Finbar Furey and Paddy Moloney being two. Oddly, the pipers that I’d hear play them rarely (if ever) played them on the pipes.
Anyhow the various double-cut rolls I do are like this:
E:
xxx xxo
oxx xxo
xxx xxo
xxo xxo
xxx xxo
xxx xxx
xxx xxo
in other words, two cuts followed by a pat. Same cutting fingers for E, F#, and G.
A:
xxo oox
oxo oox
xxo oox
xoo oox
xxo oox
xxx oox
xxo oox
B would require two index-finger cuts in a row. I’ve done it, but I rarely use it in a tune.
I would make a video demonstrating all of this stuff but I’ve not been successful uploading videos onto YouTube.
I have ABC Explorer, which I found to be perfectly good, but the graphic style of the thing irked a little, so I kept with ABCNavigator. …But it doesn’t recognise “J”! Nightmare! ABC Explorer is on my other machine…
Thanks for all this meaty stuff, Chiffers. I’ll take some time digesting this.
What is TOAD? My avatar wants to know! 
(I’m guessing Tune Obsessive Acquisition Disorder, a common affliction here.)
I use abcm2ps + GhostScript, and Vim + ABC template for editing. abc2midi occasionally for proof-listening, otherwise I can’t tolerate MIDI renditions of tunes.
Spot on MTGuru. I thought it made a nice acronym, as well as a good description of a tendency I have. Cheaper to maintain than WhOAD. Speaking of which perhaps this forum should consider including warnings in an “advice to newbies” section…
Am I the first to coin the acronym? If so, it may be my first real contribution to the community 
.
it’s something I found I started doing sometimes unconsciously when going for a 3, 4, or 5 note ornament - cutting into the note seqence with my first finger C# (L1). For example, going for a roll on E or F#, I might sometimes cut to A(L3) and then cut to C#(L1) instead of tapping D(R3). Might be combination of E{A)E{C#}E{D}E or E{A)E{D}E{C#}E for example, etc. I wasn’t aware of doing it until it was picked up in a workshop with Limerick flute player Siobhán Ní Chonaráin. We didn’t discuss it much, I just remember her saying, ‘you know that thing you do with your first finger, don’t stop doing it’… so I still do sometimes. I’m self-taught and no expert so I wouldn’t have much clue if it was ‘right or wrong’ or how many other people do it. It just happens at speed sometimes and seems to work well enough.