I recently saw a map of the historic 331 Irish baronies and it struck me: on the east side of the island and from north to south, all, and I mean all, so-designated “Upper” and “Lower” subdivisions are set up thusly:
Lower [Barony]
Upper [Barony]
What’s up with that arrangement? A consistent accident of elevation? A nod to some archaic Hibernian tradition of southward-oriented mappage, like the old Chinese convention? Stewed clerks?
Certain members of the local Genealogical Society (of which I am not a member) have charged me with finding the answer, the lazy pests, since I not only noticed what they had not on a display at their very booth, but was the one who had the gall to point out something for which they had no answer. From Google so far I get zilch.
Please help, for I fear if I fail in this mission they will set their research gnomes upon my family history and I may find out I’m descended from chicken thieves, and not very good ones. As to that, I would rather abide in the bliss of ignorance.
Iveagh Lower, Lower Half (Uíbh Eachach Íochtarach, An Leath Íochtair)
Iveagh Lower, Upper Half (Uíbh Eachach Íochtarach, An Leath Uachtair)
Iveagh Upper, Lower Half (Uíbh Eachach Uachtarach, An Leath Íochtair)
Iveagh Upper, Upper Half (Uíbh Eachach Uachtarach, An Leath Uachtair)
and these:
Carbery East, East Division (Cairbrigh Thoir, an Roinn Thoir)
Carbery East, West Division (Cairbrigh Thoir, an Roinn Thiar)
Carbery West, East Division (Cairbrigh Thiar, an Roinn Thoir)
Carbery West, West Division (Cairbrigh Thiar, an Roinn Thiar)
Jeez. I have enough trouble differentiating East and West Skonsin here in the U.S.
At least the map has North, South, East, and West divisions conforming to the cardinal directions aright.
Then there are the charmingly named baronies of “Iffa and Offa” (yes, they are stuck so together, both West and East), “Decies Without Drum” and “Decies Within Drum”. I imagine that in the case of the latter two, someone took away the bodhrán from one, and the other is wearing it.
I still very much need to know about the reversal of conventional order for “Upper” and “Lower”, though. I’m desperate, here, guys.
Pre-confederation (1867), Ontario was called “Upper Canada”, which contrasted with Quebec, “Lower Canada”. What became the other provinces weren’t considered Canada. In this case, upper means upstream; the stream being the St Lawrence & the great lakes basin.
Don’t know a thing about it. But here is an idea. The prevailing wind in Ireland is South-Westerly. A little more south than west, perhaps, certainly on a good day. If your baronies stretch from hilltop to hilltop, as they might (they might not - I haven’t checked) then the “Upper” Baronies will generally be on North-Facing slopes and the “Lower” Baronies will be on South-facing ones. To put it another way, the Upper Baronies will be sheltered from, and the Lower Baronies exposed to the prevailing wind.
If the Upper Baronies represented the more upscale properties and the Lower Baronies the less, that would fit the picture.
In Co. Limerick, Canello Upper is south of Canello Lower because the rivers and streams flow into the Shannon from the south to north in that part of the county.
My understanding is roughly this. Throughout the years there have been many different ways in which the Irish landscape has been divided for administrative purposes. Parishes were first ecclesiastical divisions the later became civil divisions. Townlands were set up in pre-Norman times and are units of around 350 acres (180 in Fermanagh).
Townlands are contained within parishes. In other words, one townland cannot have land in two parishes. Baronies or estates could, however, contain land in multiple parishes. Cases arose where a barony contained townlands of the same name who were in different parishes. It was then necessary to differentiate the two by upper vs. lower, east vs. west, or some other distinction. Since we are talking about individual instances it seems reasonable that there is no apparent consistency throughout the country.
The part I am even less sure of is when you throw counties into the mix. Baronies were formed both before and after the establishment of counties. I know that a barony that has land in more than one county are referred to as half-baronies. Without seeing the same map I don’t know what time frame the 331 baronies you mention represents. In any case, I do believe the upper vs. lower distinction was made case by case and that there is no standard you can apply more broadly.
Since only three or so of the baronies seem to cross county lines I’m going to guess that this represents the 17th century boundaries (keyword here- guess). A quick comparison of your map with a topographic map of Ireland suggests that the baronies designated upper actually are higher in elevation than their lower counterparts. This would match water flow as well, as Simon and dwest pointed out. I would tell the genealogists the bit about the baronies spanning townland and parish boundaries and defy them to come up with a better answer. After all, your source is “some guy on the internet.”
This has got me curious about the extent to which the county lines, when they were drawn, followed older boundaries. I’m off tomorrow for a week of hiking. I’ll be amid glorious scenery but away from good libraries. If you can stall them for two weeks I’ll try to give you a well-attributed answer.
“When testifying before the Select Committee on County Cess, Griffith was asked whether the boundary of a townland is the boundary of a parish, are the boundaries in any degree commensurate? He responded: ‘The boundaries of parishes are always boundaries of townlands; that is to say, one townland cannot be contained in two parishes; it sometimes happens that an estate may lie on both sides of the boundary of a parish, and that the townland in each parish is called by the same name, and is considered to be one townland, but in such cases I have always divided the townland, and added the word upper or lower, east or west, to the original name, to serve to distinguish them. As each parish will be separately assessed, it is necessary that no confusion should arise as to the boundaries of any denomination or division belonging to it, consequently in all cases the boundary of a parish must likewise be the boundary of a townland as far as that parish or the county assessment is concerned.’”
Thanks. Actually, we didn’t discuss a deadline so as far as I’m concerned I’m good to go. They’ll probably think I dropped the ball - if they even remember it - and then, one day and out of the blue, I’ll ZAP 'em armed with this Arcane Knowledge. That’s one subject you won’t find in a Trivial Pursuit game, I dare say.
And thanks, dwest, but townlands and parishes on their own are another deal altogether. What would be helpful is info telling us if (and thus how) they might influence the subdivision of those baronies designated “Lower” and “Upper”, but especially explain the cartographic peculiarity, which is what I’m after.
I might suggest contacting a county library. As an example Clare County library has a tremendous amount of property/naming information online including the statement that there are 350 baronies. http://www.clarelibrary.ie/index.htm
