Classical Accent



Joannie Madden on Whistle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9aIrs3ZsI

Tune #1, a pause and breath almost exclusively on the bar lines, every two measures… end of sections not connected.

Tune #2 and tune #3, pauses and breaths not on the bars… snuck into the middle of sections, similar to a person taking a breath after certain words during a long spoken sentence or sung passage. Ends of sections connected.

Sooooo… which is right and appropriate?

Well, tunes can be very different. The first tune, usually known as The old high reel (The whistling postman usually refers to a different reel) has a first part ending on low D and a second part starting on high a, so a break is natural there, why not breathe. But if you notice, in at least one place (at about 1:00) she does connect the low D end of the second part with a high a to lead back into the first part.

I feel that so many of these discussions between relative newcomers and old hands are a bit sterile. Often the newcomer is looking for a rule to apply, which the old hands dutifully try to supply… necessarily imperfectly. Rules are there, at some deep level, but they are always flexible and frequently broken.

I’m firmly convinced that the search for rules to apply in opposition to some other tradition (e.g. classical music) is an arse-backwards approach. (Hmm maybe that should be arse-forwards…) Total immersion is what is required… try to let the right brain absorb the rules unconsciously and try to keep the left brain out of it, at least most of the time.

I know, I’m beginning to sound like a broken record, but… just become a True Believer and chase after the music with your ears and your heart. :slight_smile:

I was going to come back and say something like what StevieJ did, but he said it better than I would have.

FWIW, I like the 2nd and 3rd tunes more. I find the first one a little too choppy.

I cant describe all the differences, but I know them when I hear them.

I guess Irish music is a lot like a two year old. Constantly moving, and occasionally breaks things. :boggle:

Yes, the old seeking for rules thing. Few things are absolute, in general what I said will hold up though, depending on the occasion. It certainly is part of the aesthetic of the musicians around here.

I know ofcourse John McKenna, Tom Morrison and that lot can be terribly choppy at times on their 78s it doesn’t convince me though the old musicians in general approached the flow of music in a different way. There’s too much pointing in to the opposite.

Anyhow, when I was learning the pipes, let’s say the seven years of practising phase, I spent an awful lot of time listening to Séamus Ennis. At some point you think, knowing from what you already know of his playing, you can extrapolate how he will approach the next tune. Well that’s what I suspected at the time anyway. I had to learn a bit of humility very quickly as he managed to surprise in a lot of the cases by doing something different(and still does when I get my hands on recordings I don’t already know). What I took away from that is that there is good reason not ever to become formulaic and let the tune itself dictate what the best approach is.

As Martin Hayes said, we all muddle along trying to make sense of it.

Why can’t they both be right and appropriate at times? While there’s always some imitation in music, if we saddle ourselves with too many rigid rules, we wind up on a quest to find someone else’s sound while never finding our own.

Well… in my opinion they can, depending on the situation and preferences of the player I guess. The purpose of this thread was to simply identify places where a classical accent is MOST obvious for a classically trained musician playing ITM. I think MTGuru and PanCelticPiper are accurate about rolls being played as turns… it will definitely be a personal challenge to adapt to the style change.

Although I was not looking for specific rules for phrasing, “always” and “right and appropriate” were used to explain how phrases are played in ITM.

I guess I’ll keep listening, practicing, and muddling along. :smiley:

Never been to Ireland and asked for directions have you ?

I was going to make a comment but then thought better not.

Edit: just to clarify: about the “classical accent” meme.

Ouch. At least I don’t have that problem! I’ll count my blessings, such as they are.

I recall the time a classically-trained young lady was learning Josie McDermott’s version, I think it was, of the Kerry Man (or the Kerry Reel, or the Humors of Rossbeigh) by ear on her violin; wide vibrato, and that especially at the end of every phrase. For what it was, it was pensive, evocative, and poignant, and would have done well on a Ken Burns documentary, perhaps; but it wasn’t Trad, and it definitely wasn’t dance music: it was “interpretive”. She too seemed unable to shake that habit. But OTOH I don’t think she was there for the tradition so much as she was just picking up another tune to have under her belt, and that gotten from any variety of random sources, for she didn’t stick around. Very possibly she just wanted to be able to say that she could “play Irish music”.

Speaking of classical accents, here’s a truly fine rendition from those
expert praticioners of Irish Music, the Baltimore Consort :astonished: :
http://images.amplified.com/FLVStream/Catalog/eb20e7d5-68c6-48eb-8aed-9072d54246db/Product/1bfcbd90-47da-4ae8-9702-826242548017/199410-01-004_mp3_128k_30s_0001_102.mp3

This needs no introduction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7PQ1iClS9Y&sns=em
Saints preserve us!

He has now, virtually so to speak. :smiley: