classic major influences

Trad Irish Music
1

In every style of music, there are usually a handful of players that everyone agrees are a key influence or the originator of something new. In jazz, this could be someone like Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker. They broke new ground and every player now would tend to agree that they were influenced by Louis or the Bird.

I’ve been coming into IRTrad more through modern bands (Bothy, Solas, Chieftains). Who are some of the key influencers in IRTrad? I particularly interested in flute and fiddle, but am open to anything.

2

I think the most influential player in the last century must have been Michael Coleman, mainly because his music was listened to everywhere and by everyone. Apart from that I think local influences were dominant at least into the sixties.

It’s an interesting question, though: Because for instance Leo Rowsome was very influential as a performer, pipe maker, and teacher when there was very little piping. However, if you listen to pipers today I think Seamus Ennis and Willie Clancy have had by far the greater artistic impact.

3

There are really two parts to the question. One is “who are the early innovators”. The other is “who are the musical influencers”.

Kevin Burke is probably an influence to a lot of players but I wouldn’t put him as a “classic” influence. No question about Michael Coleman. :slight_smile: So, who are some others than everyone would agree with, like Coleman?

4

Patsy Touhey.

5

Hmmm.

I will now unashamedly reveal my death grip on the obvious.

Matt Molloy.

He has single handedly changed the way the flute is played. How’s that for influence.

Also, there’s Paddy O’Brien of Tipperary, who pretty much changed the way the box is played by “creating” the B/C box style, as compared to the C#/D. At least, that’s my uninformed impression of what he did.

Also, Johnny Doherty reigns supreme in the tomes of Donegal fiddle. His influence is still very direct.

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-21 17:25 ]

6

For flute you would have to look at Jack Coen, Vincent Broderick, Paddy Carthy, and Josie McDermott

7

Well, I think one of the most significant innovations of the last century was the rise of the guitar/bouzouki as an accompanyment instrument. When Eddie Fury started accompanying his brother Finbar on guitar in the early/mid-sixties it was very unusual, but it must have been in the air given the folk-revival. Usually people credit Johnny Monyhan, Donal Lunny, or Alec Finn for introducing the bouzouki. It think it was Johnny Monyhan (on Sweeney’s Men) who made the 'zouk. (But Joe Dolan, the original member of Sweeney’s Men introduced Monyhan to the Bouzouki.) Apart from the instrument, that driving rhythmic accompanyment that you hear on all the big acts today like Altan, Dervish, or Lunasa, that I think was Donal Lunny. He was and is so influential because he started producing many of the commercially successful acts.

On the flute, I think you’d have to name Matt Molloy as a significant innovator. I know, I know. His artistic merit is in dispute, mostly on the basis that the music is lost in the virtuosity. The level of technical skill, however, and the sheer amount of ornamentation in today’s flute playing is a result of Molloy’s influence, particularly his black album. I don’t care for that sort of playing much myself, and would rather not call it an “innovation”, but it would be hard to dispute it’s influence.

I wish I could look further back in time to understand the role of people like John Doherty, Garret Barry, Sarah Makem, or the Doran brothers, but all that is still a mystery to me.

8

On 2002-11-21 17:23, Pat Cannady wrote:
Patsy Touhey.

I don’t know about that…did/does he influence many? I’m not a piper so I don’t know how much he is listened to now, but it seems to me that Touhey never held that much sway in terms of influence. I think that Clancy and Ennis are far greater influences on most, and the rest would have been Johnny Doran disciples.

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-21 17:30 ]

9

I think that many are there who have or are key influences in irish music. Willie Clancly, Larry Nuggent, Mary Bergin and Brian Finnigan and Kevin Crawford are each key influences representing their own unique style. Also, in terms of their influence, the most influential doesn’t necissarily mean that they are the best. There are many musicians who were fantastic that didn’t get heard, and therefore very low on the influence scale. So, influence doesn’t mean ability and vice versa.

10

I agree that influence does not mean greatest player/musician. However, my agenda is to learn a bit of the musical roots. So, more influential players are going to be more obvious influences in current players.

Who’s the best “X” player ever is a different question. :slight_smile:

11

For “classic”, roots, innovation, I’d say (in no particular order regarding instrument)

Touhey, Clancy, Ennis, Rowsome, the Dorans Rochford (I’ll stick my neck out here and say I think Rochford was more of an innovator that Coleman), Canny, Crehan, Coleman, Killoran, Casey, Mrs. Crotty, Russell, Carthy.

There are more, but that’s a start.

Teri

12

Whoa! What about John McKenna and Tom Morrison for fluteplaying?

13

I think it’s interesting, and stupid, that very few of the names mentioned here can be found in your average record store like Borders or Virgin, where Solas, Lunasa, and even people like Clannad are what stands as Celtic Music; whereas in the Jazz sections the Jazz Classics get tons of space.

As for Matt Molloy–I hadn’t heard much of him until recently when I bought a few Chieftains albums, including their “Irish Evening” one. When I heard his solo track I was totally blown away. Is it traditional? Is it artistic? I don’t know, but it’s amazing. No wonder he has imitators.

14

On 2002-11-22 09:09, Michael Sullivan wrote:
I think it’s interesting, and stupid, that very few of the names mentioned here can be found in your average record store like Borders or Virgin, where Solas, Lunasa, and even people like Clannad are what stands as Celtic Music; whereas in the Jazz sections the Jazz Classics get tons of space.

The names mentioned here didn’t have large recording contracts such as the modern musicans you named. Some were not commercially recorded to speak of and exist only in private collections on old tapes. I wonder, even had the opportunity presented itself, would those names have signed up. It makes me think of my mother’s favorite saying: And just who are they when they’re at home?

There are a few compilations of old 78 recordings on CD, but I doubt that they’ve been any financial success. I would imagine to take the time to find the old recordings, remaster them, put them on CD and distribute requires much devotion with little monetary gain. Sadly, it’s always about money. The appreciative audience is much smaller than that of jazz, or classical, or country. If someone put together a collection of unheard Patsy Cline recordings, I’m sure it would sell very well. To compare, it might be interesting to see the numbers associated with the upcoming Doran release.

I agree, it is stupid, but moreover, sad that those who came before and represent “the tradition”, or “pure drop” (if you prefer) are being passed over for the modern version. The cliche, don’t know where you’re going if you don’t know where you’ve been. My thanks to the traditionalist (you know, the mouldy old farts) that keep that music alive.

T

15

I think there is little doubt as to the impact made by the 78 rpms and the radio during the early years of the 20th century, and I mean that in a sense much wider ranging than just Michael Coleman.

I think for the real big influences you’ll have to look at all these people that played music say, one or two generations back.
It’s all fine to read al the people above who are assumed ‘great and unique’ voices. Which they may be but I think many of you would be surprised if you heard recordings of who their influences were so you could place their music in context and assess what they took and from where they took it. There are often long lines going back.

But if you look at today’s fiddleplayers you would have to look at Patrick Kelly, Bobby Casey, Tommy Potts, Martin Rochford, Junior Crehan as major influences [and I edit in the following, realising there is another load I am probably not thinking of right now John Kelly Padraig O Keeffe, Denis Murphy, the Dongal crowd, maybe Paddy Fahey, Aggie White, Ellen Galvin]. But none of those can been seen without their own background, not even Tommy Potts.

Just to take Martin Rochford you would really have to look back at Pat Canny [the father of Paddy], Johnny Allen, Paddy Poole [who in his turn was out in America and played with Touhey], the travelling fiddlemaster McNamara and all of those he got his music from, the interactions with East Galway, the influnces on his piping [He was stone mad for the music of the Dorans whom he knew well]and his life long relations with Junior, Patrick Kelly, Paddy Canny, the Donohues. The common influences on his music and that of Joe Bane, John Naughton, Martin Woods, Bill Malley. These are vast areas of influence, you have to bear in mind there is an awful lot of contact between musicians and exchanges of information and what ever, it’s never just a few names ‘who had it’.

I was listening to a tape the other day of different fluteplayers, I thought one of them was Molloy, maybe an early recording. Oh no, just another guy from Roscommon that happened to have the same sort of background. There’s never a clear cut answer, few are ever really unique and independent.

Seamus Ennis was an enourmous presence but ca nwe look at him without looking at James, the father, Nicholas Markey, Pat Ward, John Potts, what he called ‘the old pipers’. You can’t. Can you see him without knowing his relations with other musicians, Padraig O Keeffe, Colm O Cathain, Labras O Cadhla. Bess Cronin and all the less wellknown singers he collected from. No. It’s the whole thing. It’s handed on, call it tradition.





[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-11-22 12:07 ]

16

On 2002-11-22 09:09, Michael Sullivan wrote:
I think it’s interesting, and stupid, that very few of the names mentioned here can be found in your average record store like Borders or Virgin, where Solas, Lunasa, and even people like Clannad are what stands as Celtic Music; whereas in the Jazz sections the Jazz Classics get tons of space.

You lead into my next question beautifully. :slight_smile:

So, what recordings are available (preferably CD) of these various artists and what stores/dealers seem to make an effort to stock these?

Just like we need to support music stores that actually know about the instruments they sell with our dollars, we should be buying at places that stock something other than Top 40.

17

I would suggest that you browse the sites of both Custy’s music shop and the Knotted Chord, between them they stock just about everything available and they are both run by knowledgeable musicians.

18

Celtic Grooves and Copperplate are two web-based vendors that have some good stuff in that vein.

19

On 2002-11-21 17:29, energy wrote:

On 2002-11-21 17:23, Pat Cannady wrote:
Patsy Touhey.

I don’t know about that…did/does he influence many? I’m not a piper so I don’t know how much he is listened to now, but it seems to me that Touhey never held that much sway in terms of influence. I think that Clancy and Ennis are far greater influences on most, and the rest would have been Johnny Doran disciples.

True Believer
Nate

[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-11-21 17:30 ]

Ennis and Clancy were both infulenced to a degree by Touhey, and so were a host of irish-american pipers including Mike Carney, Tom Busby, Tom Standeven, Joe Shannon, etc.