Does anyone know what kind of whistles the late Ciarán Bourke of The Dubliners played?
I have been unable to find any information on the matter or any photos of him with a whistle.
I’m guessing maybe Overtons because there were not many high-end whistles to choose from in his day, and I’m quite certain that he didn’t play Generations… at least not in any of the recordings I have.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Hardly likely they were anything else than Generations (there wasn’t anything else). On some of the pics on the records covers you can see the red heads on them.
I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)
On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)
Hmmm, I might be “Deputy Generation Defender” (or whatever) on this board, but this - the “and why would they?” - strikes a chord. 
In my opinion whistle players - Irish or not - have every reason to play other whistles than Generations or Oaks, simply because there are better instruments out there. So, if I am given the choice between a Sindt and a Generation, I will choose the Sindt, for exactly the same reason I would choose a Generation over a Walton. Why? In both cases the instrument chosen would be the best instrument of the two offered (all IMHO of course).
Peter, I am curious, have you ever tried, say a Sindt or a Burke brass D whistle? If yes, what didn’t you like about them?
To (re)state my opinion on these whistles; both of them sound like “real” tinwhistles, having the same kind of tone, feel, volume, weight, etc. - they’re just better made and sound better than any “manufactured”, cheap tinwhistle. In another thread you mentioned something about expensive whistles not sounding like “real” whistles (tone, volume) and being therefore inappropriate for Irish music. This is an opinion I can agree with (with some reservations perhaps), but it clearly doesn’t apply to the whistles mentioned above…
Cheers,
Jens
quote]
On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)
[/quote]
Peter, I am curious, have you ever tried, say a Sindt or a Burke brass D whistle? If yes, what didn’t you like about them?
I have played a Sindt briefly and I have one on order actually. I am stirring a bit again offcourse, but most very good whistleplayers I know or have known can knock a great tone out of a Generation. So it’s all fine that a lot of people who are really not much beyond the beginners stage in my opinion go out to spend a lot of money on very dear instruments while really, they don’t need to. Someone from this board in a private mail recently mentioned funny looks were given to people playing ‘cheapos’ in her area, ‘you aren’t in without a Burke’ sort of thing. That’s what I sense in some of this discussion and that’s what I am stirring in if you like. The school of thought that says: so and so sounds great so he can’t be playing a cheap whistle. Well, I am sure he (or she as the case may be)can and probably is.
I was going to add the following to my post above:
I saw the Dubs perform several times during the 70s, by then it was mostly John Sheehan playing the whistles. From the recordings I often wondered how he got that lovely rounded tone (on say, the Honeymoonreel, the Sweep’s hornpipe etc). At the concerts he had that exact same tomne and he played a brass Gen. Not a bother on him.
I suppose, and we get back to that ‘Generation: are they crap or not discussion’, it’s all in the way you blow into it. Micho Russell used to borrowed a particularly battered C whistle from me for concerts and he blew a lovely tone into it. Last year I played in ‘the band’ at Martin Rochford’s funeral mass, Sean Potts Ronan Browne and myself all three playing whistles, each sounding very different on the same type of instrument. You can knock the instruments but you bring something to it yourself.
On 2001-12-05 04:42, Peter Laban wrote:
Hardly likely they were anything else than Generations (there wasn’t anything else). On some of the pics on the records covers you can see the red heads on them.I said it before, and say it again, hardly any player in Ireland uses anything else than a Generation or the odd Oak. And why would they:-)
Granted that Ciarán almost certainly did play Generations on some tunes, but try playing along with Dunphy’s Hornpipe off the Live in Carre Amsterdam CD with a Generation whistle… it’s in the key of E (as are many Dubliners tunes).
Ciarán was still alive when that was recorded, but it still may have been John Sheahan playing that tune… I’m not sure.
Whether it was Ciarán or John, you still can’t play along with it on a Generation… so the question remains open.
[ This Message was edited by: raindog1970 on 2001-12-05 07:35 ]
A friend of mine is actually supposed to have been there when that was recorded, but I don’t think he’ll remember.
But seriously, I have undetaken some minor research around the house before making a fool of myself. First: a photograph of the Bourkeman playing what looks like an old battered Clarke. He did play other stuff so.
Secondly: goingthrough old recordings checking for pitch: Willie Clancy 1967 (roughly the same period as the Dubs)played a whistle pitched in E.
There was something available in that pitch so at that time any takers or thought?? willie would certainly not have had any high end of the market instrument in 1967 even if it would have been available.
(I will possibly be able to find out from some of the older local whistleplayers, I’ll report back if I get any results)
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-05 09:29 ]
I have played a Sindt briefly and I have one on order actually.
Good man.
The school of thought that says: so and so sounds great so he can’t be playing a cheap whistle.
And of course I agree that “school of thought” is pretty damn silly.
Cheers,
Jens
Jens I have both a Burke brass and a Sindt D but I play a Generation most of the time. Apart from easier tuning and indestructability, I’d be curious to know in what ways you find them better.
Personally I miss the windy edge to the sound and the complexity of tone that I get from a Generation. The Sindt sounds a little dead by comparison - this is especially noticeable comparing a Sindt and Generation Bb.
I don’t really have the knowledge to speak to the true answer, but is it possible that each of them made they’re own? Either from scratch or using a piece of tube with a Generation fipple?
Erik
[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-05 12:42 ]
In response to Bro S’s <<Apart from easier tuning and indestructability, I’d be curious to know in what ways you find them better>>
It is far, far easier for me, a beginner, to get a decent sound out of my high-end instrument than it is to get one from my low-cost ones.
The upper register doesn’t make the birds scream.
It balances better in groups.
There isn’t a buzz on any note.
It is in tune with itself and doesn’t need to be tweaked.
My music sounded better and made me feel better about playing and practicing.
I can play in front of someone, and if my hands or breath quaver from nerves, the instrument doesn’t do a Jekyll and Hyde on me. . .
I could go on.
Here’s the problem with Generations for me: I’d love to have a good generation or three, but…They’re quite scarce in my neck of the woods and I don’t much feeling like ordering two dozen just to find one that’s good. If their quality control didn’t blow I’d be all for 'em.
Steve, Yeah, I’d agree that the bigger Sindts (C, Bb, A) aren’t that strong; I mean they’re good, but not like the D and Eb Jon makes. Too bad you can’t cross finger C nat, that really keeps me from playing mine much.
Loren
I’ll echo Loren’s sentiments (that’s happening a lot lately!) about the lower Sindt whistles.
I just received a set of 5 for sale and, like a good steward, played them all. The A has great tone, little strong volume, same with the Bb, although I found it slightly better in sound quality than the Copeland Bb that I’ve got here.
The C is marvelous. Pure and strong. I like how Jon has ridged the blade. The D is marvy too, but that Eb…my gosh.
I can see why folks are so up on Sindt whistles. As well they should, too!
I’ve played Generations for years and years (save for the kingwood Abell in D that I’ve had for many years), but only recently decided to move to something different. Having the opportunity to try them all, I’ll say this: Copeland’s Bb is best in my opinion. Sindt has by far the best Eb. The best D is a toss between Abell, Sindt and Copeland, with a Burke very close behind.
Overton has the best of the low whistles (F and D) to me, although the Grinter low D that I sold for a client was marvelous, too.
Yet, despite the higher prices, I can’t help but love the sound that my favorite whistle player – Vinnie Kilduff – gets out of the Oak. Truly incredible.
This is a COOL thread! Given a chance to voice my oppinions as well, I’ll have to side with the Generation/Oak camp as well.
I’ve had some amazing luck with yweaking most of mine, although for some strange reason, I perfer the nickel/blue Gens to the brass/red ones. I can’t for the life of me tweak one of those silly red ones well to save my life!
A friend of mine recently bought an Oak C that I tweaked for her, and I must tell you it is a thing of beauty!
I think one of the things that defines what a really “good” and “true” whistle sound is for me anyway, is that I cut my teeth on Chieftains recordings, and Paddy’s Generation sound is just so distinct for me that other whistles just don’t seem to have that strange complexity of tone that the Gens/Oaks do to my ear.
I’ve got a Burke brass pro which I love, and have played many many high end whistles too, all with nice but different tones. Apart from the store bought cheapies, my very next favorites must be Mack Hoovers work. Increadable tone. Sweet, direct, and the perfect amount of chiff for my tastes.
Anyway, if times is any measure, I still find myself gravitating towards my Gens/Oak about 90% of the time.
B~
Sean Potts is getting an amazing sound
out of his Generation–on the other hand
he says that it was given him 20 some
odd years ago by Mary Bergin, because
it sounded so sweet, and
that these days the head is attached to the
tube by tape. I think I know why Sean
doesn’t just run over to the music
store to trade it in on a new one!
Anyone who thinks cheapies can’t sound
good or who looks
down their snoot at someone playing
a cheapie at a session, doesn’t know
celtic music or whistles, obviously.
But it’s a two-way street, I think.
There really is a good reason to
play some of the high end whistles–
they sound absolutely gorgeous.
Innovations in a craft or art are
typically used by a minority at first–
that’s the nature of innovations in
a way. Hence it is often the case
with innovations that the best practitioners
aren’t using them–at least for a few
decades. It hardly follows that the
innovations aren’t an improvement.
Of course, many of the best
practitioners simply may not be particularly
well acquainted with the new thing;
and there is a natural human conservativism
as well–one sees this in sweeping generalizations from a single case, as
in ‘I once heard someone play one of
those things and it didn’t sound so
good to me, so they’re all a bit
of a waste…’
I don’t think it myself, but I do
understand why people who know all
the whistles might prefer Generations
to anything else. But it can certainly
go the other way too, and I hope we
will cultivate an open mind–especially
about whistles we don’t know well yet.
What matters really is what happens when
you play the whistle for a couple
of months.
That the best whistlers play Generations
isn’t a good reason to conclude that
my Copeland nickle D isn’t a superior instrument for the sort of music they play. To paraphrase an American novelist, I may
not be Columbus, but that doesn’t
mean there is no new world.
[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2001-12-06 02:54 ]
There really is a good reason to
play some of the high end whistles–
they sound absolutely gorgeous.Innovations in a craft or art are
typically used by a minority at first–
that’s the nature of innovations in
a way. Hence it is often the case
with innovations that the best practitioners
aren’t using them–at least for a few
decades. It hardly follows that the
innovations aren’t an improvement.
Of course, many of the best
practitioners simply may not be particularly
well acquainted with the new thing;
and there is a natural human conservativism
as well–one sees this in sweeping generalizations from a single case, as
in ‘I once heard someone play one of
those things and it didn’t sound so
good to me, so they’re all a bit
of a waste…’That the best whistlers play Generations
isn’t a good reason to conclude that
my Copeland nickle D isn’t a superior instrument for the sort of music they play. To paraphrase an American novelist, I may
not be Columbus, but that doesn’t
mean there is no new world.
[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2001-12-06 02:54 ]
There is a certain conservatism among traditional players but there is also always a very strong sense of looking for improvement and I can assure you that any of the great whistleplayers would immediately latch on to a development if they thought it would improve their music. People are in general very well informed about what is going on in the world. We get a lot of you people passing through, half the world comes to the Willie week, workshop teachers travel the world round. Still, very few, if any, feel tempted to upgrade. I don’t know about you but that tells me something.
There is a new world out there, certainly, butI have the impression a lot of you haven’t even started exploring the old one yet.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-06 04:01 ]
On 2001-12-05 12:41, ErikT wrote:
I don’t really have the knowledge to speak to the true answer, but is it possible that each of them made they’re own? Either from scratch or using a piece of tube with a Generation fipple?Erik
I also have insuff knowledge abt the players and the piece involved, but here’s another piece of pure speculation: Maybe they used a D whistle and crossfingered the tune in E?
I can handle a slow piece in E on my D whistle (well, just about), and I’m a whistle beginner (though not a beginner to music). Surely the experts would have no problem with this?
Surely you are right, Peter. Many of us haven’t even started. Neither are we privileged enough to have the persistence, the talent, the environment or the TIME to progress to a point when we reach a level of skill and knowledge that could be acceptable to someone who grew up with “the tradition” and its whistleplaying. But, hey, what’s wrong with that? As long as the love for the music and the playing of it is there, it’s ok. There are several reasons for the ongoing discussing of whistles and their respective merits on this board. For one reason, as was already said, a professionally crafted whistle makes a mediocre player sound better, at least to his/her own ears. Second, this thing called WhOA has, in my opinion, little to do with music at all. Whistles simply are collectors’ items, and this board adds to the mystery of whistles and whistlemakers. In my opinion, posessing and knowing about all these whistles available at least partly compensates for the lack of skill, knowledge and experience of the music itself. But only partially, and that’s why many of us end up buying more whistles. A truly addictive behaviour (there could be worse addictions, though…).
There was a fierce discussion about what this board should be. I for myself wouldn’t want it to change. A true understanding of playing and the “tradition” can only be achieved by face-to-face communication (sessions, concerts, discussions, tutorials and the like). Whistles are just whistles and therefore much more accessible to a widespread community such as us C&Fers.
Good luck to you, Peter. Bad luck to us:-)
On 2001-12-05 12:31, StevieJ wrote:
The Sindt sounds a little dead by comparison - this is especially noticeable comparing a Sindt and Generation Bb.
I assume you are comparing the Gen Bb to a Sindt Bb? If yes, I’ll agree with you (and many others) that the lower key Sindts aren’t as fantastic as the high ones. My Sindt A hardly ever gets any use. While nice, it just sounds sort of … muffled.
Why would I prefer a Sindt D over a Generation D? Primarily because it is better in tune, and I like the tone better on it (a subjective thing of course - to me a Sindt D sounds both like a “real” tinwhistle and at the same time with a more beautiful sound), and secondarily because I’m a lazy guy and the Sindt is much easier to play.
One could make a point that a tinwhistle used for Irish trad. shouldn’t sound “beautiful” in the first place and that those that do lose the “rough” sound you get from a “real” tinwhistle. Well, I like beautiful as well as rough, and to me a Sindt whistle delivers both!
BTW, it’s well known that you can’t cross- finger a C natural using “oxxooo” on a Sindt. Much less known is the fact that I want to be able to use it anyway! So, on my Sindt I have placed a piece of tape over the top part of the first hole, which naturally has the effect of lowering the pitch of the C# and C notes, while leaving the other notes as they are. It brings the C into tune using the fingering shown above, and only slightly lowers the pitch of the C# (which anyway is easier to bring back in tune by blowing harder).
Cheers,
Jens
I didn’t mean to resurrect the old debate about high-end vs. cheap whistles with this thread.
The only reason I made any mention of high-end whistles was because Ciarán (and John) unquestionably played whistles that were not in the standard keys generally produced by the cheap whistle manufacturers.
This leaves only three possible explainations:
(1) They used custom made whistles
(2) They used modified cheap whistles
(3) They used an unknown brand of cheap whistle that was available in odd keys
I would lean towards the notion that they played custom made whistles, but I could also easily believe that they played modified cheap whistles.
If there was a brand of cheap whistles available in odd keys during the period of time in question, I’d be very interested in knowing what it was… and if they are still available today.
Dear Peter, Thank you for your response.
You write: ‘There is a new world out there,
certainly, but I have the impression
a lot of you haven’t even started
exploring the old one yet.’
I agree. In my own case, I don’t believe I will ever attain half the expertise of the traditional musicians you know, indeed, I daresay, yourself. As a fellow musician, my
hat is off to all of you. My point is
this: it simply doesn’t follow that
the whistle I’m playing isn’t an improvement.
You write that plenty of visitors
come through your neck of the woods with high-end whistles,
‘still very few, if any, feel tempted
to upgrade. I don’t know about you
but that tells me something.’
Maybe the situation is a bit
more fluid. I believe that Mary
Bergin is playing Sindts and Copeland
As, Joannie Madden plays O’Riordan
wooden whistles, high-end low whistles
are being played (e.g. Seamus Egan
plays a Copeland low D); in the USA
excellent performers like Grey Larson
play a Copeland high D–and so on.
I’ve taken a good number of lessons
at Celtic festivals, and the teachers
were all playing high end whistles.
I do agree, though, that if
things are largely as you say, it at
least suggests the possibility that
high end whistles aren’t an improvement
(and I certainly do appreciate that
Generations are giving some fine
whistlers the sound they want). But I don’t believe this can settle the matter. I confess my prejudice, which I appreciate you have no reason to share: I don’t think
such questions can get properly
answered by who is
playing what or where they live or
even by how good they are. I think
the merit of the instrument decides
its worth, that is discovered in
the playing of it, and finally to know
the score it’s probably best to pick the thing up and get to know it oneself.
All the best, Jim