I’m learning Bunker Hill on flute at the moment and I got to the B part with those longer C naturals. I’d like to be able to do some sort of roll on those C’s cause it’s a little boring to just leave them alone. Anyone have suggestions for those C natural rolls or something to suggest in place of them?
You’re brave! I can’t get that tune into my head to save my life (except for the C part (I think there’s a C part? That tune twists and turns on forever in my head.
In those situations, I will sometimes just tap a cut, duplet or triplet on a C natural with my RH index finger. (I finger C OXX OXX so it’s not much of a leap)
I’ve seen other (and better!) flute players flap their entire right hands, but I seem to get more contrast with the “closed fingering.”
Good luck!
Dunno the tune off-hand, but C natural rolls are not a major problem, c.f. my own tune The Sullane Jig - clip in signature below, which uses them. Here’s how I do 'em:
If you use the Classical standard 8-key C natural fingering (oxo xxx) rather than the common “Irish” one (oxx ooo), a satisfactory true roll (cdcbc) is perfectly possible with a little practice using the following fingering sequence:–
c (oxo xxx)
d (oxx xxx)
c (oxo xxx)
b (xoo xxx) – no need to lift the R-hand fingers
c (oxo xxx)
[N.B. on most flutes the said C natural fingering is more in tune and stronger than the common “Irish” two-finger one, and offers advantages in quick passages as it is only one finger different from the D above. It also has the advantage of not being the same shape as 3rd octave D, avoiding confusion and risk of overblowing to that! I also find it easier for the shift to the B below as the grip on the flute is more secure. It is usually preferably played with the E flat key open, though that is not necessary in this roll.]
No need for flappy R hand fingers that way either, Cathy!
Like anything else, a little slow practice of the fingering sequence out of context, then build speed and context and you’ll crack it.
FWIW, you can do a C# roll in pretty much the same way:-
c# (ooo ooo) or fudged (ooo xxx)
d (oxx xxx)
c# (ooo ooo) or fudged (ooo xxx)
b (xoo ooo) or fudged (xoo xxx)
c# (ooo ooo) or fudged (ooo xxx)
- use the fudge fingerings if you like to to reduce finger flapping, though it’s actually not too hard IMO to get the coordination for a 5-finger tap - I mostly do it with the standard fingerings myself.
AND, if you prefer to do a roll on 2nd 8ve D rather than a 2nd 8ve cran, that’s quite do-able too, thus for a roll with C#:-
d (oxx xxx)
e ( xxx xxo)
(d (oxx xxx)
c#(ooo xxx) - definitely fudge this one
d (oxx xxx)
and thus for a roll with C nat:-
d (oxx xxx)
e (xxx xxo)
d (oxx xxx)
c (oxo xxx)
d (oxx xxx)
Once you’ve practised any of these up, you won’t lose them.
Good luck!
You could just play three Cs separated by glottals and it’d be fine. I’ve ended up doing a fake roll thing which sounds fine as long as you do it crisply;
oxxooo
oooooo
oxxooo
oxxxxo
oxxooo
This has come up before as well:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=11206&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
I must have removed those MP3 files but will see if I still have them somewhere and can re-post.
Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh taught us this tune at a workshop a few months back and we discussed doing proper rolls using the Cnatural key on a keyed flute, plus alternatives as suggested by Jem on a flute without the Cnatural key. But the easiest alternative she showed us if you want to avoid the roll but not just hold a long C, was to play GcBc ecBc in place of Gc ~c ec~c
Cheers
Graeme
Please explain, Graeme! In my experience one can readily play a B (or other lower centred) roll to C natural using the C nat key for the cut, but trying to use a keyed C natural in a roll on C itself (unless one only cuts to the open C# ooo ooo by cutting L1 - which wouldn’t be terribly effective) is much, much harder than the cross fingerings I explained - to the point of being impractical to most mortals - as going “over the break” to D from the keyed C natural is a much more awkward change than that from any of the main cross-fingered alternative C naturals (oxo xxx, oxx ooo, oxx xoo, oxx xxo or oxx xox). Using the keyed note on a standard 8-key set-up (unless one has one of those late C19th French or Viennese style flutes with an extra C nat key for L2/3), the sequence would be:-
c (x,oo ooo) (remembering the , is played by R1)
d (oxx xxx)
c (x,oo ooo)
b (xoo ooo)
c x,oo ooo)
Just try it slowly!
After all, most of us would probably use a cross-fingering rather than the key for C nat most of the time in fast passage through a C-D or C-E (or reverse) combination that didn’t have to be as crisp as an ornament. I use my C key quite a lot, including to vent C#s, and miss it on a flute without one, but I mostly use the cross-fingering in those kinds of context.
Alright, the 2nd half of the roll, the CBC bit, is easy enough with the key in isolation, but going cleanly from the keyed C to a 5-finger tapped D (or 4 if you keep R3 down) with a counter-motion switched away L1 and back again, also with R1 having to hit its hole cleanly coming off the C key and going immediately back again, followed by the the slightly counter-intuitive motion of releasing the C key for B… all cleanly, crisply and spot-on for timing…aaaargh. OK, it is conceptually/technically possible and therefore with enough practice ought to be achievable, BUT 
. I think the boggle factor is far higher than with the cross-fingered sequence I suggest/use myself. At least in that there is only one finger (L3) to tap for the D and L1 is already raised, then there is only a double counter motion between L1 and L2 going from C to B and back to C again.
Perhaps that use of the C key for a roll isn’t what you are referring to? Hence my request to explain 
!
Here’s how that passage sounds using the short rolls on C that I diagrammed in the earlier thread I linked to up above:
http://homepage.mac.com/bhurley/.Public/bunker.mp3
I’m playing it slowly here so you can hear what’s going on.
Just to try to be helpful in another way, here are the dots for Bunker Hill as transcribed from Arty McGlynn’s famous rendition of it on the Lead the Knave album on Fender Telecaster (or was it Stratocaster? I forget and can’t be bothered going to look 
) from the Irtrad Tune Archive (there are several other versions there…), which includes the variation for the B music suggested by Graeme above to avoid the C rolls.
Brad, I see/hear what you’re getting at, but even with your excellent, crisp execution and very percussive attack on the first note, it doesn’t really work for me sound-wise (that C# offers too little pitch differentiation), and fingering-wise it’s no easier than my suggestion.
As you’ve written. c c# c B c but perhaps not as effective as one of the (many) cross-fingered alternatives you gave which as I mentioned we also discussed. As for using the C key or not I use it when I can but on fast passages involving d or e usually cross finger.
Cheers
Graeme
Ah. OK - same thing as Brad, then. Sorry I misunderstood and thanks for clarifying.
Just to hammer the thing to death and I hope to demonstrate adequately the efficacy of what I’m advocating, here’s a demo clip I’ve just done - developing the C nat rolls with the fingering I gave first above, then the offending B music done slow, then at something like normal speed. Please allow for my doing this more-or-less from the dots as it’s a tune that, though familiar with the melody to listen to from the Arty McGlynn recording, I haven’t played before.
Tiff, I hope all this is some help!
Me too…
Wow! I came home from work to find all these great suggestions. Thanks everyone! I’m definitely going to try them all out and hopefully I can do at least one. I listened to Michael Clarkson’s recording on his podbean flute site and he gets a good roll on those C’s.
This definitely helps!
I just got a lovely reminder of how awful I am at sight-reading.
Thread revival… I’ve been intermittently practising Bunker Hill ever since this discussion brought me to it and am now playing it out at sessions…so thanks for bringing it up, Tiff! I feel I’ve just about cracked it, though there’s doubtlesss room for improvement and development of my interpretation. I did a phonecam video of it earlier this month on a flute I’ve just finished fixing up and have just found time among all the Christmas shenanigans to actually get it up on YouTube. Any feedback would be appreciated…
WOW ! what a tune…i got dizzy just listening to it, good thing is, now that i’m 50 i’m exempt from having to learn it 
Cheers, Eilam - I just got in there, then - I’m 50 tomorrow!
i love being 50
almost as much as i loved being 40
of coarse, i did celebrate it with a new Boxwood Olwell
happy birth day tomorrow Jem !!!