Hi, I’ve been reading this forum for a couple of months now and this is my first post. I have to ring in on the side of those saying “geez, lighten up!”
It seems to me that the whole point of folk music, wether it be Irish Traditional, blugrass, or whatever, is to have fun. I’m not comfortable with people proclaiming what is or isn’t proper ITM. After all, the tin whistle is a product of the industrial revolution and the “Irish flute” as we now know it didn’t exist until Boehm made simple-system concert flutes a glut on the market. The fiddle replace the harp, much to the dismay of many Irish musicians. One musician, I forget the name, said “If fiddling be music then best give up the whole thing!”
That being said, I have no problems with experienced folk musicians recomending what they think the best practices are–it would be very foolish not to listen to the voice of experience, but I don’t like turning it into a rant against classical musicians and their “dots”. Contrary to popular belief top-level classically trained musicians (I am fortuante to know a couple) can play by ear with the best of 'em. And without sheet music how much (more) music would have been lost over the centuries?
Well, that’s my 2 cents. Everybody have a good day!
It’s not snobbery. It’s part of being a real grown-up musician, no matter what style of music you play. Way back when I was studying classical guitar, we were always expected to memorize our stuff. The conventional wisdom being that a) operating the machine is much too complicated to have to deal with another visual distraction, and b) if you have to rely on a printed page to find out what pitches and rhythms you’re supposed to play, how can you even think about things like expression and interpretation?
I’ve taught Irish flute to several classical players, and they always comment that once they’re able to learn tunes by ear, they perceive all music differently. When your ear is trained, you’re able to listen much more deeply and with much greater understanding. There are just too many advantages to weaning oneself off the dots not to do it.
Great avatar Ro3b.
I couldn’t agree more. I never get the correct “feel” when looking at dots personally. The snobbery comes in when somone turns their nose at those who don’t do things the “way they are supposed to”.
In don’t want to confuse this with matters of necessity. For example holding a flute to your ear won’t create a sound. There ARE some things you have to do to make it work. What I refer to is when a person who is quite capable on a particular instrument is ridiculed for playing a style of music that is either not intended for that instrument or plays a catagory of music in a fashion not considered “proper”.
When playing medieval music I use an Irish flute. Some might say that’s wrong. Tough t***y. It works and works well.
I rewrote Blackberry Blossom to sound like a renaissance tune. Some might skoff. Too bad. It sounds good. (3/4 time)
That’s what I mean by snobbery.
I recall that part of the examinations for classical violin required sight reading, that is playing a piece from the page with little time to study it before picking up my bow and slashing away. I wasn’t very good at it, and gave up the violin at the tender age of 13 partly as a result of this.
One thing I’ve noticed in the classical vs folk area - classical music (as I remember it) was based more on method. “If you follow these steps exactly as I show you, you will be able to play music like this”.
In folk it’s aimed more at the target “here’s the sort of feel I would like you to aim for. It doesn’t matter if you stick the bow up your sit-upon, the fiddle between your knees, and use both hands to finger the notes, because I’m not looking at you, I’m listening to you.”
That sounds very biased, but not I think entirely at odds with reality.
Maybe if I had progressed beyond the lowest levels of violin abuse and actually beeen able to play it would have felt different.
Martin,
I played classical guitar for a long time. I memorized almost everything but only because it took me so long to learn the pieces. When I played flamenco I also saw what you describe above. There are lots of strumming techniques done with the right hand and every flamenco guitarist I knew did them differently. As long as it sounds right no one cares how you do it. OTOH, Andres Segovia always insisted that his fingering of a piece be played exactly, with no exceptions. It all depends on what the goal is.
Mike
Mike, did you do exams, or just play for your own amusement? I played guitar awhile, mostly folk (song accompaniments), and a bit of ragtime & blues, and always learnt off tablature. The thought of playing guitar from sheetmusic would freak me, but I guess some people can do it.
I can’t really handle more than one note at a time in sheetmusic, maybe two double stopping on fiddle, so a whole chord would make me go blind too!
In other words, developing ear skills is an important part of learning a musical instrument, and especially so in a folk tradition like ITM.
But, geek4music was not referring to playing by ear as “snobbery.” Rather, he was referring to some of the exaggerated silliness about sheet music being just plain wrong or sucking the soul out of music.
Way back when I was studying classical guitar, we were > always > expected to memorize our stuff. The conventional wisdom being that a) operating the machine is much too complicated to have to deal with another visual distraction, and b) if you have to rely on a printed page to find out what pitches and rhythms you’re supposed to play, how can you even think about things like expression and interpretation?
That’s conventional wisdom? But, what about hundreds of years of people (a) successfully operating these complicated machines, and (b) successfully thinking about expression and interpretation, all while using sheet music? To this day you can go see your local symphony orchestra and observe people playing with sheet music, and somehow overcoming all the problems that I hear about from people on the Internet.
Perhaps you mean the conventional wisdom that (a) and (b) apply to kids who are just learning to play a musical instrument. That’s a different matter entirely: it doesn’t mean that sheet music causes problems or makes music worse, but that it causes problems for students, who are still learning to properly focus their attention.
The same applies to tapping one’s feet: the pros do it, but when you’re just learning to play a musical instrument you shouldn’t do it—at least, you shouldn’t rely upon it for rhythm. This doesn’t mean that tapping one’s foot destroys the music or whatever, it’s just a pedagogical matter.
Martin,
I started playing guitar when I was 21 and it was purely for enjoyment. I don’t think there is a system of musical exams in the US as there are in Britain and Canada. At least I’ve never heard about any. I always had trouble reading chords in guitar music, especially since nearly every note can be played at three different positions on the fingerboard. Reading music for the tinwhistle is much easier. Only one note at a time! I can almost sight read a lot of the easier tunes. Playing them up to speed as they are meant to be played is another thing.
Mike
Perhaps you mean the conventional wisdom that (a) and (b) apply to kids who are just learning to play a musical instrument.
No, I mean that in the classical guitar world, memorization is simply part of learning a piece of music, and those are the reasons why. Moreover, I can’t think of a classical soloist I’ve seen on any instrument using sheet music while performing. Orchestral people are a different matter, of course, but my point is that many classical musicians have a similar attitude towards sheet music as traditional musicians do.
Orchestral people are a different matter, of course, but my point is that many classical musicians have a similar attitude towards sheet music as traditional musicians do.
Well, orchestral people can nevertheless play expressively, thus demonstrating that sheet music does not prevent this.
Again, I think ITM should be learned by ear, and that people can do this right from the start because the tunes are so short and melodic. I think nobody playing ITM needs sheet music, and anyone who feels that way is postponing an important step in the development of musical skills.
I think sheet music is great for people like me, who would NEVER have picked up a whistle (or anything else) and learned anything without it. I had no musical confidence at the start (well, still kind of don’t) and it would never have occurred to me that I could play by ear or–gasp–improvise. I don’t have money for a teacher and have no one in my life who plays music on a regular basis who would have encouraged or helped me.
Learning to read music was like learning a whole new language, and it was the MAIN ROAD for me from going from someone who’d always wanted to play SOME instrument to being someone who could pick up an instrument, look at a piece of paper and discover MUSIC. I am finally starting to learn to play by ear and really listen to music, but I would have never gotten there without the “crutch” of sheet music.
I was 32 when I picked up a reer and a "How to Play the Reer" book and just went thru it, step by laborious step, until I could make sense of it all. By the time I discovered the whistle a few months later, I could read music and a WHOLE WORLD opened up, one which I can’t now imagine my life without. Music was one of the best things to happen to me, and I think for those of us who love it, we can feel grateful–no matter HOW we were first exposed to it or WHAT method we use for learning it.
Okay, but I’d add that either group’s attitude towards sheet music seems to be different from what I see written on the Internet.
I know of trad musicians who when teaching hand out sheet music, tho most I encounter will teach tunes by ear. Either way, I’ve never heard anyone in real life express any animosity towards th’ stuff, or hold any philosophical views about the presence of sheet music magically preventing emotional expression (beyond its ability to distract students, who have not yet learned to focus on more than one thing.)
Rather, I find attitudes from fellow students, or in discussion groups, which seem to be exaggerations of the attitudes of trad musicians. Maybe we hear about the proscription against sheet music, and jump to the conclusion that this is because sheet music is a bad thing in and of itself, rather than simply unnecessary and inconvenient for ITM.