Last year, an opinion was put forth to the effect that “Breandan Breathnach’s Ceol Rinnce na hEirreann (especially the first three volumes) would be the single most important collection of the last century.”
Indeed, a strong statement…
Does anyone know a source for these books or a source for more information about them? I haven’t been able to turn up a thing.
http://www.ossianusa.com/
Ossian USA address. Also available in Lark in the Morning stores or mail order.
I have volumes 1 and 2 and enjoy them a lot.And I have a huge collection of tunebooks already but these are great versions, meticulously notated, well-bound. Only drawback might be that all titles are in Irish and you have to look in index to see more "common (to English speakers) names of tunes.
Thank you very much… Seems that my spelling was off just a little. But enough.
Strong statement maybe, but also a generally accepted fact.
indexes and translations for the english speakers are at:
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/scottish/CRE/
someone did a very useful job there.
The tune collections are excellent - essential references for anyone seriously into IR Trad. I have Vols. I & II
You should be aware that Breathnach’s method, at least in these two volumes, was to transcribe the tune as played one time through by the player from whom he noted it, many of the recordings being made back (I think) in the 1960s. He made no attempt to edit or notate a “standard” version such as you will find in most modern “session” collections.
What you have is a record of the way a good (not necessarily well-known) traditional musician did with the tune on one occasion. I think we should be very grateful that he proceeded in this way, but it does mean that if you are looking for the “notes” to a tune you’ve heard on a record, you are likely to be frustrated.
In a sense therefore I think that to get the most out of them you need to be well-versed in Irish music. I certainly find that today I appreciate them much more, and can make much better use of them, than I could when I first got them 25 years ago when I was just starting out.
If you’re tempted, start with Volume I - it contains an amazing wealth of great tunes.
Vol. II is also very good. Here he tried a different approach to noting ornamentation, writing out the ornaments used by the player in full, rather than using symbols to be interpreted according to your instrument. This can be harder to read for the inexperienced.
I don’t know the later volumes, but I believe that BB changed his approach somewhat, taking tunes from records by the younger generation of players. For example in Vol. III if I remember right there are transcriptions from records such as Eavesdropper by Kevin Burke and Jackie Daly.
I also read that the use of Irish only for the notes was an idea of the publisher, not Breathnach.
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/scottish/CRE/
someone did a very useful job there.
Wow, that was fun reading…especially the parts about C/C# and F/F#. Makes me wonder if the Sindt (and other whistles) oxxooo
fingering of Cnat. being a bit sharp is maybe more accurate than not. ?
-brett
On 2002-03-29 09:07, Bretton wrote:
someone did a very useful job there.
Wow, that was fun reading…especially the parts about C/C# and F/F#. Makes me wonder if the Sindt (and other whistles) oxxooo
fingering of Cnat. being a bit sharp is maybe more accurate than not. ?-brett
Actually John Sindt has his instrument tuned to equal temperament and to my ear too much so although there is room enough for proper intonation while playing. I am sure this also holds true for most other whistles considered more perfectly in tune (compared to the cheaper ones) on this board
On 2002-03-29 09:07, Bretton wrote:
Makes me wonder if the Sindt (and other whistles) oxxooo fingering of Cnat. being a bit sharp is maybe more accurate than not?
Not to my ear! And since, as Peter mentions, the Sindt is tuned to equal temperament, in fact the F# is also higher than Breathnach would want it. In fact this tuning of the F# is what makes the C-nat sharp.
I’ve taped over almost the bottom half of the enormous F# hole on my Sindt D, and to me, both the C-natural and the F# sound better as a result. You still need the oxx-xox fingering for the C, but that’s what I’m used to anyway.
As many people have pointed out, the C-nat being sharp is not an issue for John, since he half-holes the note exclusively à la Mary Bergin. I wrote to him recently asking him to consider making D bodies with smaller F# holes, but haven’t had a reply.
Echoing what StevieJ said about the Ceol na Rince books and their place in your library and usage. I was going to say many of those things but as I am oft-accused of running on a bit I held back…Here I go anyway.
A case study is “Boys of the Lough” in Book 1 as “Buichailla na Locha.” I assume that most Irish music fanatics (like me) have heard Michael Coleman’s 78 of it. It was famous in its day because (according to liner notes) he revitalized what was considered to be an average reel. It appears in ONeills as a two part reel and it seems pretty close to what Coleman played. In Breathnachs, its a four-part reel though the last two parts are obviously variations. I absolutely love the version in Breathnach’s but I wonder just what version you would encounter in sessions? In other words, if you are playing this in your group its fine but does it fall into the convention of sessions players everywhere? I don;t know the answer, maybe more experienced C&Fers do. I guess it can also be called the Johnstown Reel so maybe there is this floating variation out there anyway. Anybody know?
I was gratified that others mentioned the intonation issue of C Nat and FNat as well.
On the one hand, we all just want to play and not be crippled by nagging considerations but there is necessary homage always to tradition and how we can reflect it.
I play the reel the Old Bush (on my old Feadog).It has quick C nat right in the beginning as an alternating third figure. In part B, you sort of modulate to C and sit on the C nat repeatedly.
When I first started learning it, I looked for my quick C nat choice. I ended up using the one finger choice (on the A hole). Its the sharpest C nat, I think compared to two or more hole cross versions and much sharper than the half-hole on that particular line of whistles.
My thought process evolved: at first, I SETTLED for it, because it was fast and easy BUT I used the half hole in the second part of the reel cause its a longer note and more prominent. Then I started to get used to it and kind of LIKED the sound and was bothered by the inconsistency of using different versions of the same note. THEN I read Breathnach and got this idea that its not only okay but maybe somehow a little more traditional. NOW I am tempted to just use it throughout the piece. The problem will be when I get together with the fiddler and guitarist. I don;t know how it will sound.The fiddler may subconsciously adjust and frankly, the harmonic instrument (guitar, bouzouki) should always be considered an extra to this super-melodic music form in my opinion.
But anyone who reads this may appreciate the evolution for a musician (and a guitar player at that) used to equal-temperament encountering this scenario.
I feel the better for knowing this kind of info from Breathnach and am grateful to have his life’s work available.
oops double post
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-29 16:26 ]
On 2002-03-29 15:10, The Weekenders wrote:
Echoing what StevieJ said about the Ceol na Rince books and their place in your library and usage. I was going to say many of those things but as I am oft-accused of running on a bit I held back…Here I go anyway.A case study is “Boys of the Lough” in Book 1 as “Buichailla na Locha.” I assume that most Irish music fanatics (like me) have heard Michael Coleman’s 78 of it. It was famous in its day because (according to liner notes) he revitalized what was considered to be an average reel. It appears in ONeills as a two part reel and it seems pretty close to what Coleman played. In Breathnachs, its a four-part reel though the last two parts are obviously variations. I absolutely love the version in Breathnach’s but I wonder just what version you would encounter in sessions? In other words, if you are playing this in your group its fine but does it fall into the convention of sessions players everywhere? I don;t know the answer, maybe more experienced C&Fers do. I guess it can also be called the Johnstown Reel so maybe there is this floating variation out there anyway. Anybody know?
The version BB gives is one of many tunes in his collection fro mthe playing of Tommy Potts.
Potts’ unique position within the tradition and the way he ‘developed’ tunes is a very special one and should be looked upon as such.
I feel the better for knowing this kind of info from Breathnach and am grateful to have his life’s work available.
Well that’s relative, his tune collection included over 10.000 tunes so only a small portion of that is available. He had many other achievements as well.
Thanks, Peter. I am grateful to be able to learn from people closer to the source of what gives me such joy. I knew the process by which Breathnach transcribed the tunes but not specifically what you described about Tommy Potts.
I have mentioned repeatedly on this Forum how much I enjoy Paul McGrattan’s cd, “The Frost is All Over.” Based on those liner notes, he has grown up in the neighborhood with the Potts et al near Dublin. He has been my “tutor” lately for reels etc. I learn more from his cd than from many books put together.
And I was aware of the thousands of tunes yet to be published. Breathnach describes the overall project in one of the intros, I think.
[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-01 21:11 ]
Listen to Potts’ ‘Liffey Banks’ album.
A second compilation of his music has been compiled but has not come onto the market yet.
A highly interesting analysis of Potts’ music by Michael O Suillebhean was published in ‘The crossroads conference 1996’
For the record: Paul McGrattan lived near Sean Potts, Tommy Potts lived in Walkinstown(next door from Tommy Reck the piper)
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-30 02:53 ]
Michael O Suilleabhain actually did his Doctorate on Tommy Potts music, he was completing it when I was a student of his at University College Cork about 12 years ago. I don’t think it is published but it is in the reference section of the library in UCC. He often challenged us to play Potts more complicated arrangements like My Love Is In America, a most interesting experience on something like the pipes! I think that Potts playing is a bit of an aquired taste, I first heard him when I was 13 and couldn’t relate to it at all although I appreciate now. He was certainly an ethnomusicologists dream.
He did his doctorate for Queen’s university I believe. I ddidn’t mention it because it’s not easy to get hold of.
Interestingly I was listening to a tape of Martin Rochford I recorded in 1989 recently and Martin played a version of my love is in America which had strong similarities to some aspects of Potts’ version. It left me wondering about the interactions between the styles, Potts going on extensive visits to East Clare to visit Canny and PJ Hayes. Rochford would certainly have met him [I remember discussing Potts’ music with Martin’s wife some years ago] but the things he did in this tune were not dissimilar to what he did in other tunes, i.e. he was not playing a Tomy Potts version but going his own way.
Hey Peter :
Reviving this thread to thank you for recommending “Banks of the Liffey.” by Tommy Potts. Don’t know if you check your private mail, if so let me know and I will move these kinds of messages to that method and withdraw this post.
It will take me years to absorb, appreciate, and reflect in my playing what I will learn from this master.
Thanks again.
[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-04 23:21 ]
Hadn’t checked this week, have replied now.
I also read that the use of Irish only for the notes was an idea of the publisher, not Breathnach.
Brendan was an official of the Irish Department of Education and was employed for much of his career in its Irish-language publications Department, An Gum, so the deal was that by putting all the titles in Irish he was able to spend his time collecting and publishing the music. A remarkably creative application of his talents by some insightful superior in what was a very conservative and by-the-book (oops!)Department in his day.
Some tunes are in fact known among Irish musicians mainly by the Irish version of the name - e.g. Cailleach an Airgid or Sean sa Cheo. Gael Linn, inter alia a record publisher, has as its mission to promote the Irish language, but it sensibly gives bilingual titles and sleeve notes.
On 2002-04-08 17:30, Roger O’Keeffe wrote:
Brendan was an official of the Irish Department of Education and was employed for much of his career in its Irish-language publications Department, An Gum
In fact Breandan worked originally for the Department of Agriculture, overseeing bacon-production in Ireland. He managed to get senior officials interested in his music projects after which he was detached to the Department of Education. Prompting his remark he had moved from ‘pigs to jigs’
And Roger, you were spotted and sized up in The Blondes on the Ennis road last thursday week 
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-04-09 03:25 ]
The couple of days in Miltown were far too short. I was going to post a recommendation on C&F or even the Mudcat Café about what what a very welcoming session it is, but was afraid I might kill it with kindness. But I’m sure any C&F devotee who arrives in Miltown Malbay will find his/her way there without any difficulty - if in doubt, contact Peter before you travel.
Were you there yourself lurking in the background, Peter, or are you relying on intelligence reports? It was only as we were leaving Hughes’s B&B (which is also very welcoming and which I would recommend highly to musical plumbers of all persuasions) that I discovered that Mrs H’s husband is well clued into the piping scene -in fact he brought me up to date on some people whom I haven’t seen for over twenty years!