Yes Kenny, please do! I would love to hear you play! I would like nothing more than to learn that there are more young people out there in the fleadhs playing good music. I’m just going on the ASSumption that I’ve heard a good representation of the caliber of music being played. If that’s true, Eldarion and I do not share the same idea of what is good music as does Kenny.
The hardest thing I’ve ever had to do (besides fun things like bury my parents, etc.) was judge an Easter coloring contest for children ages 3 - 10.
Talk about heartbreaking. Here was the kid who picked every color with such attention to accuracy, making sure the bunny was brown, the eggs were Easter-y colors, etc. – you know that child spent hours on that drawing. And over here was the free spirit who said “What if the bunny was polka-dotted, too? And hey, he needs a hat!” And then there are the 3-year olds who colored with such incredible verve and enthusiasm – all over the page, but hey, that’s what happens when you’re 3!
So there are lots of factors at work in competition, I think. The biggest one is, I believe, thinking the judge is marking one way and trying to play to the judge – which some people do, and many are tempted to do when nervous! And then there are the others … Perhaps you’re just green at that level. Perhaps that’s the ONLY performing you ever really do alone. Perhaps you’re just plain nervous or have a stomach-ache. Or perhaps you’re really just not that good, but other competitors all screw up royally beyond overlooking on that particular day. Or perhaps the judge is just bad … it all adds up. So who knows?
I also think age is a factor, especially when you’re youngish. There’s a big difference between the way a girl of 18 or 20 is going to play compared to a man of near-80 who’s been playing the tunes all his life, no matter who comes from where.
And now let’s be the judges for a minute. How are the they being measured? Are they going to get hollered at for honoring flair? Are they going to be strung up for overlooking a mistake? Are they going to be applauded for appreciating style, or reviled for ignoring the fine points of the rule book? (And hey, are they nervous they’re going to screw up?)
And, to Sean’s point (and believe me, he knows about this – hi Sean! hi Orla!), what kinds of judges are being HIRED for the job? That tells you a lot about the personality of the organization doing the hiring. If they’re looking for judges who eschew appreciation for style and creativity in favor of slavish adherence to the rule-book and mechanical precision, well … what are competitors to do if they want to win?
So in other words, this may not be the way these folks really play. And in some cases the winning rounds might not necessarily be what the judges really like, either.
Alas, it’s been that way since Day One in most any event that’s not based on an absolute like a stopwatch. And, until CCE gives sufficient, perhaps even equal, weight to style, artistic impression, and feel for the music – i.e., creates marks that challenge the judges to score boldly, reward risk, and thus invite the players to take some risks – it’ll probably stay that way.
In my horse show days I sometimes found myself brave enough to let fly with a brilliant test; other days I played it conservative, and I couldn’t tell you why other than that was just how my horse was, or how I rode that day. (Doesn’t mean I was happy about it, though!)
And I must admit I’ve taken home the medal when, if you were judging technical precision, I shouldn’tve – I made mistakes, but the judge just liked our performance better than others. On other days I turned in mechanically precise rides that won even though my horse and I yawned our ways through the entire test. And then there were those rare, VERY rare, days I got to do both precision and flair … and sometimes didn’t ribbon at all! (Totally bad judging those days, IMO 
)
So bottom line, competition is a crap shoot. Always has been, always will be. It’s just unfortunate that it often turns out to be a bunch of crap, too.
I’m interfering with good intentions, please just hear me out.
MurphyStout, I know you don’t know kenny. He doesn’t post very often. But he has been playing and performing on the flute and whistle in Scotland since the 1970’s. He is active in the Scottish Culture and Traditions group and sent me a tape and tunes to help me learn some Scottish tunes. He is a whistle teacher. Sorry, kenny, don’t mean to embarrass you. But I know this is not the issue here.
TO THE POINT–
I believe kenny is not arguing one way or the other about the overall quality of the winners of the contest. He is saying that he had good listening experiences with a few winners, you, or Eldarion, had bad ones with a few.
He is not questioning anyone’s listening ability or judgment.
He then is saying did anyone, you guys or kenny, hear enough players to draw a conclusion? You may think you did, and that’s okay—except kenny heard about the same number of good ones so logically he would have to draw the opposite conclusion. It sounds like kenny thinks both parties did not hear enough to draw a conclusion. Anyway, I think that is the question that is up for debate—how many players would make up a representative sample?
Considering there are 40+ winners each year just in over-18 age category, it would be pretty hard work to actually hear a representative sample.
Hmmm… there’s a one-row accordion category. Maybe next year I should take the 4-stop and my bassoon to the Midwest Regional… 
I should have said that I have no opinion in the matter since I know nothing about it. I was just trying to straighten out what looked to be a mix-up. A bassoon sounds good to me. 
And you did a fine job. I was just trying to emphasize that odds are none of the people in this discussion have come anywhere close to hearing enough recent winners to make a blanket statement about their playing.
I mean, I almost piped up with an opinion, but on consideration, I’ve only heard (I think) 2 of the senior winners in the last five years, out of (probably) at least 125 musicians. Not much of a sample.
By the way, one of those All-Ireland winners was the guy who beat me the year I did compete on bassoon at the Midwest Regional (US) Fleadh… I want to say he occasionally posts here, but maybe that was on IRTrad.
Wait, there is a competition for the bassoon? I think I am confused. I thought it was only certain instruments and that they would be ones that one commonly heard playing Irish traditional music. I hadn’t really associated the bassoon with ITM. Is it a competition for all kinds of music? I know people will be roaring at this.
There is a “miscellaneous instruments” category for ITM played on instruments not otherwise in the competition. Back when I had been playing whistle for about two years, I entered that category playing bassoon. As I didn’t really know what I was doing in ITM yet at that point, it was an abject failure, although I successfully amused a lot of people who heard me.
I was beaten by David James, who played hammered dulcimer. He went on to win the All-Ireland Miscellaneous that year. Other instruments I’ve seen in the category include cello and mandola.
Oddly enough, I think you could enter Miscellaneous playing low whistle – you could probably make an argument that a Bb whistle would qualify, even. (The rules are a little vague on what key a “proper” high whistle is.) Never heard of anyone doing it, though…
If the winners you met were as good as you say, that would be all fine and dandy. All Ireland winners should be good, very good in fact. The problem arrives when a handful of these All Irelanders from recent years start sounding less than good, uninspiring, boring. What does it say about the title? Bearing in mind that these were more prestigious titles like for solo flute and pipes, not meaning miscellaneous instruments etc.
I have never said anywhere that I’m assuming every winner of this competition weren’t worth their salt, but rather, how can the judges even let some of these people become All Ireland winners without causing some questioning of the competition’s integrity? (or what is left of it if what Sean says is true)
delete
Regarding low whistles etc., I was talking to Gary Lynch, the “new” Seamus MacMathuna of the CCE, on the subject a few weeks ago, and he said that any 6-holed whistle would be accepted at a competition, whether it was a low whistle or not. Whether or not your local adjudicator would listen to the folks at the culturann or not is another story…
Hear, Hear Sean. I have witnessed and experienced all of the above personallty and have washed my hands of all CCE competitions. The solo competitions can be utterly bland and dissastisfying and the adjudicators are often completely irrelevant in their placement ( fiddlers judging pipers, flutists judging fiddlers etc..). My worst experience was in the ceilidh band comp. My band was disqualified for having inappropriate and “untraditional” instruments ( 1 whistle and a flute instead of 2 flutes and a bodhran instead of a snare drum). Later that year the band who won the All Ireland had a Double Bass. Inconsistent??
And why do they insist on ceilidh bands playing a march?
Because SO many Irish ceilidh dances are done to marches…
Errrr… they don’t. At least not according to the rules, and for once, the rules are pretty clear here.
Two reels in succession plus a maximum of two tunes from each of THREE other classes.
And the classes of tunes are
Air (slow or lively), Jig (double, single, slip), Slide, Reel, Polka,
Hornpipe, March, Set Dance
Of course, I’m guessing they wouldn’t be too pleased if the ceili band played a slow air!
A possible 2 airs in succession?? I’m sure they would love that!
No, the above means both “slow” and “lively” airs are one class of tune, just as jigs can be double jigs, slip jigs, or single jigs, but you can only play one of the three.
(Though just the other day I read a story about someone who probably lost the all-Ireland because he played slip jigs instead of double jigs…)
ah, you’re talking of the tune selection for solo, duets etc. I’m talking about the Ceilidh Bands.
“Traditionally” ( ie what is generally played ) for the Ceilidh Band comp is
1 march, 2 double jigs, 1 hornpipe, 2 double reels. ( and 9 times out of 10 played in that running order ). Any group who plays anything aside from that will not technically be breaking the rules, but will certainly receive frowns and mutters galore…
It’s funny you don’t get set dancers adjudicating celidh bands either, after all in this case it’s music for dancing to as opposed to just listening to.
oh, and btw Colomon, I just listened to yer tunes! Lovely stuff indeed. Keep it up!
Thanks!
And the rules I posted ARE the rules for ceili band tune selection – two reels as a set plus three other tune “classes”, in sets of one or two tunes from each type. The general instrument categories never allow you to play two tunes of the same class – the only exception I’ve ever heard of is in resolving ties.
Tradition may dictate additional restrictions, but that’s what the official rules say. Unless there is more than one set of official rules – I’d be mildly surprised by that, but given that it’s the CCE, only very mildly.
CCE is the starting point for the vast majority of musicians. Young people learn music initially at local branch level and progress from there.
It is quite fashionable to sneer at so called Comhaltas heads and engage in Labhras bashing.
however, none of us would have had the opportunity to start music without the structure that is Comhaltas.
the CCE bashers would do well to remember this.
No.