Anyone know anything about this whistle?

FROM THE MODERATOR: This thread contains some debate about lead poisoning. Chiff & Fipple recommends that you avoid putting lead in your mouths. Thank you.

Original unedited post follows:

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I’ve recently caught the whistle bug (is it contagious?), and am currently muddling along using a Clarke Sweetone in D and a B flat whistle found in a shoebox. I was wondering if anyone knew about the manufacturer - it’s a cylindrical metal whistle with a mark round the neck saying, “Joseph Wallis -135- Euston Road London”. It’s quite an old whistle, leastways it looks a bit bashed - the grey colour’s wearing through to yellow-ish round the holes, and some of the engraved lines ornamenting it have been worn away. Cheers!

http://www.dillonmusic.com/historic_fifes/waliis_fifes.htm

1853-58: ‘Joseph Wallis’, 6/7 Providence St., Walwoth
1858-65: ditto, 6 Union St., Borough
1865-67: ditto, 14 Union St., Borough
1867-83: ditto, 135 Euston Rd., NW
1884-91: ‘Joseph Wallis & Son’, ditto
1894-95: ‘Joseph Wallis & Son Ltd’, ditto
1910-28: ditto, 133, 135 Euston Rd

If it’s labeled just as you’ve quoted, it appears to have been made between 1867 and 1883.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Not only is is contagious - it is known to be nearly impossible to cure.

The good part is that it is great fun!

Hey Turkeysoup - that sounds like a really cool old whistle! any chance of you posting a pic?

Contageous… well… yes, but once you catch it it can be terminal… at least chronic, and certainly most often lifelong… oh, the suffering! :laughing:

Methinks Turkey hath commerce in mind, what with this being his first posting and all.

It is like AIDS.

(I’m thinking I should probably be insulted by Whitmores75087’s assumption I’m male (I’m not), but I don’t feel like making the effort :wink:)

Thanks Jerry! I’m one happy whistler, not only does it sound great, but it’s got a history, too! It really is lovely - it’s got a gorgeous pure, mellow sound. I’ll try to get some photos of it up soon.

But I’m keeping it safely in my greedy little hands! That being said though, does anyone have an idea of what these sorts of whistles sell for?

$30-$40 US.

One other thing you should know …

The grey metal in the mouthpiece is lead.

EXTREMELY toxic. If there’s any white oxidation on the lead surface, that’s the most dangerous form. Be sure that’s completely gone so there’s nothing visible but a clean metallic surface. Then, I would recommend sealing the lead surface with clear nail polish. You can thin it with nail polish remover or acetone to get it to make a thinner film. And don’t clear moisture out of the windway by sucking it into your mouth.

Best wishes,
Jerry

wipes forehead Phew - thanks Jerry! I think I might just put it safely aside - shame, I really liked it. So the rose had thorns after all. :frowning:

Why? Did eBay shut down?

List it, post a notice about it here, then hang onto your hat. Even the antique probables without clear manufacturer attribution should bring more than that.

Just use a little fine grit sandpaper or steel wool to smooth it and then give it 2-3 coats of clear nail polish. As far as I’m concerned - and I know some disagree - the hazard of lead fipple plugs is vastly overrated.

Besides, did you really plan on living forever?

Please state on the basis of what authority you have derived this conclusion. Please provide evidence. Rigorously researched, statistically significant evidence.

Seriously, Chuck.

I would not recommend that you, or anyone for that matter, go around posting on a public forum that lead toxicity is overrated.

Let’s suppose someone decides to take your advice seriously. Let’s then suppose a lead fippled whistle becomes that person’s favorite whistle and they play it every day. Let’s suppose that five or ten years later, that person commits suicide after two or three years of intractible depression. Let’s then suppose that someone decides to investigate the death and discovers that person had lead levels far above the amount considered toxic.

This is not at all out of the realm of possibility.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Not above the realm of possibility perhaps. But certainly so far out on the fringes of possibility to be negligible.

Come on, Jerry. How much lead, by weight, is in a fipple plug? That’s what you’d get if you ATE the fool thing.

It’s many times what you’g get if you bit down hard enough to cause dents. I don’t claim to have any scientific measurements. but we’re talking about lead transfer from TOUCHING the lead, possibly through multiple coats of nail enamel.

If you’re talking about a poor child eating paint chips, I agree with you completely. But AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, the danger everybody obsesses about with lead fipples is not much, if any, greater than I’ve already risked from many years of handling (and even occasionally biting down on) lead fishing weights and bullets.

NOTICE: Do not follow the advice of fools who do not know they do not know what they’re talking about.

Chuck, back away from the keyboard. Your posting here is so irresponsible, it boggles the mind.

If you imagine that such “trivial” exposures don’t matter, you might review the life of Beethoven. Not a happy story.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2000/10/18/beethoven001018.html
http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/beethoven/hair/hair.html

Best wishes,
Jerry

Here’s a monograph on lead toxicity.

http://www.legallawhelp.com/safety_and_health/lead_poisoning/lead_dangers.html

Note that the guidelines for lead levels in water are in parts per BILLION. Note that it is recommended that a worker be removed from a hazardous workplace if blood levels exceed 50 mcg/dl (that means ONE THOUSANDTH of a gram of lead per 2.2 QUARTS of blood). And this is DOUBLE the amount of lead that is considered potentially harmful to an adult.

Theoretically, there’s enough lead in an antique whistle to poison a hundred people, let alone one person. Practically, though, my biggest concern is the fact that such whistles are very old, in this case more than 100 years old, and there are areas that cannot be cleaned and/or sealed with a high degree of certainty. As I said, oxidized lead is the most dangerous form, and there’s sure to be quite a lot of oxidixed lead in the interstices of the mouthpiece that are inaccessible to inspection. In addition, given that it’s a wet environment in direct contact with the mouth, I would certainly recommend caution. To compare the potential for toxic lead exposure from a 100+ year old whistle that will contain a significant amount of oxidized lead to that from new, shiny lead bullets or fishing weights is not realistic.

Lead disrupts the functioning of almost every brain neurotransmitter, says David Bellinger, Ph.D., a psychologist and epidemiologist at Children’s Hospital in Boston.



In adults, lead poisoning can contribute to high blood pressure and damage to the reproductive organs. Severe lead poisoning can cause subtle loss of recently acquired skills, listlessness, bizarre behavior, incoordination, vomiting, altered consciousness, and–as with children–seizures, coma and death. Poisoning without severe brain effects can cause lethargy, appetite loss, sporadic vomiting, abdominal pain, and constipation. By the time symptoms appear, damage is often already irreversible.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[you are right…the fipple is lead but i am thinking of replacing with wood. ( it has a coat of non toxic varnish at the momment). the plate is 'joseph wallis, 135 euston road, london and the whistle body is stamped G. it is in pretty immaculate condition. jerry, thanks for the info on the other post]

i paid £5 on ebay for this but it was badly listed. i came across the whistle while searching for a joseph wallis piano.[/quote]

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Niko:

Jerry is right about the toxicity of lead. That said, it’s important to understand risk too. (I’ll explain in a minute.) From the description, the whistle appears to be a quality antique. It has some modest value, maybe up to $100. All of it’s value is in its original condition. If you try to change the fipple the value will disappear, the whistle probably won;t play as well or play at all and you may put yourself at greater risk of lead poisoning than if you left it alone. There are many good, safe whistles that play well for a modest price.

I have a couple of old lead fipple whistles. I’ve played them for maybe 10 minutes total. I’m not worried for these reasons.

I’m not a doc or a toxicologist. I have worked on lead poisoning issues on and off over the past 18 years. Lead poisoning is primarily a concern for very young children and women of child-bearing age. It is a chronic toxin that lodges in bone narrow. It doesn’t go away by itself. At low levels of exposure it disrupts the processes that support development of motor and intellectual skills. there is no safe level of exposure for children age 0-6 years. The greatest vulnerability is during the first 2 years of life. As technology allows detection at ever lower levels and research methods allow idenification of more subtle harmful effects, exposure levels keep dropping. Higher levels of exposure in children can lead to acute effects and possible death. I grew up in suburban Boston in the 1950s. I probably had some lead exposure. Most of us did because of air depostion of leaded gasoline (phased out in the 1970s). The harm I sustained occured before I was 6 yrs old. I might be an IQ point or two lower and a bit less nimble than I might have been. Who knows?

Lead is not good for adults either, but exposure patterns and risks are very different. Because motor and intellectual skill are mostly complete by age six, those effects are no longer a concern. Exposure levels 5 to 10 times higher and more are associated with a whole series of health issues for adults. There used to be many occupational exposures 100 yrs ago. House painters used lead based white paint and suffered from something called painters wrist. these kinds of exposures are now rare. The low levels of lead exposure that are very dangerous for children don’t produce identifiable effects in adults.

As for the whistle, play it an hour a day for a couple of years and you’ll have a problem. If you’re an adult and not a woman who may have children in the future, you can play a tune every so often and it will be okay. NEVER, EVER LET KIDS PLAY WITH IT.

As for changing the fipple, you’d probably think of cutting and grinding or melting it out. Either of these methods would be very dangerous. They would change the lead into a form more easily inhaled or ingested. The risk would be much great than leaving it alone.

These days, most lead risk (toxicity + exposure) in developed countries is associated with hobbies. Leaded glass making and bullet making with lead are very dangerous because the lead is molten, vaporized and easily inhaled. Shooting ranges can lead to serious lead exposure. Glazes on pottery in less developed countries may contain lead. Artists paints may contain lead and other toxics and should be handled with care. Same goes for certain art pottery glazes.

Lead is a very serious health risk, especically for young children. Be very careful.

Personally, I’d be careful with the word “fool”. It can come back to haunt those who use it, however good their intentions.

There is a lot of hysteria associated with lead nowadays, but the level of danger represented by it is directly related to the form in which it occurs. Lead which occurs in compounds, particularly organic compounds, that are easily assimilated by the body are particularly toxic. Tetraethyl lead, once an anti-knock compound added to gasoline, is one such. As I understand it, the high levels of lead found in Beethoven’s hair are suggested to have originated from fish caught in the heavily-polluted Danube, or from lead compounds used to sweeten wine – the ancient Romans used to like wine mulled in lead bowls because of the sweet taste imparted to the drink as the acid wine dissolved a bit of the metal. Both of the explanations for the high levels of lead in Beethoven’s hair involve lead compounds, not the metal, which is much less dangerous. What I have read of his life does not indicate that his ailments and miseries through most of it are correlated with lead intake. Beethoven died at the age of 57, his health having severely deteriorated for the previous year or so. It is suggested that the lead poisoning recorded in his hair sample may have contributed to his death, but the sample only records lead content during the time the hair was growing – which was at the end of his life. We know nothing of his earlier history in this regard. His celebrated deafness is not believed to be related to lead at all.

Metallic lead is much less dangerous than combined lead. As evidence I cite another famous life, that of Andrew Jackson, who lived for 39 years with a lead ball, received in a duel, so close to his heart that surgeons dared not try to remove it. He died at the age of 76, apparently from the effects of tuberculosis, dropsy, and heart failure. The danger from the lead ball derived chiefly from the powder used to propell it.

The danger of lead at shooting ranges derives primarily from combustion products of the lead styphnate compounds used in primers, not the ( metallic ) bullets, which nowadays are very commonly jacketed with gilding metal anyway. Nonetheless, it is a good idea to shoot in well-ventilated areas, and to wash one’s hands after target practice before eating.

Do I recommend playing whistles equipped with lead fipples? No. There’s no reason to. There are a great many makes of whistles available for playing that completely avoid any risks that may, or may not, derive from the use of whistles with lead fipples. A great many of these modern whistles play very sweetly indeed. I suggest that one keep the old whistles as delightful curiosities, and play them sparingly, if at all.