An extra hole at table 2 please...

Whistle
1

In another topic Peter Laban made some interesting points regarding the nature of whistle fabrication, specifically added holes, and it seemed like it deserved its own topic.

(for reference see: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=1536&forum=1&start=15 )

I’m wondering if we could beat this around a little. Personally, I’m not fond of added holes. If I want a chromatic instrument, I’ll either half hole or grab my flute. And for Cnat, I just go with what the instrument allows. If it has a good cross fingering, then I may use that. Other times, I’ll half hole. The beauty of the whistle, for me, has been its simplicity.

Peter made the point that he didn’t see additional holes catching on. While I can’t predict the future I imagine that he’s correct. What do you think? Do added holes somehow diminish the purity of the whistle? Will we see an increased demand in hybrid whistles or is it something that will only exist in dark alleys? (In a hushed voice: “psst - I’ll take one of those, and put a thumb hole in it.”)

Peace,
Erik

2

I tend to think that if someone made a good 4 or 5 keyed (low) whistle, people would buy them. I’m not saying the majority of folks would rush to them, but enough to make them a viable option (finacially) for the maker.

Personally I’d like to see a fully chromatic (keyed) Overton Low D that included an octave key. I don’t think it would replace my wooden flute, but it would sound different enough and give a nice break from that “head turned to the left” body position that irritates my back and neck problems.

3

If we put in a high-hand thumb hole and one for the low-hand pinkie, wouldn’t we have a recorder? For those who want a really chromatic whistle, perhaps a reasonable question would be, “how can we make a recorder sound like a whistle?” and then, “which whistle?”

4

For clarity’s sake : please see my remarks as made in the context of traditional Irish music. I think it’s great people are experimenting with different materials, sizes and maybe extra holes but in this music the sheer simplicity of the whistle is fine. When moving into different sorts of music, maybe these innovations will be usefull but then, why re-invent the wheel instead of changing to a recorder (which has gone through that development over centuries ago)?
On the matter of extra holes I could make a point on the loss of colour when using extra prefab holes vs cross fingering/half holing (for the same reason I would not recommend using say a f nat key on the pipes)
but I will not go into that here now.




[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-11-20 09:49 ]

5

Peter,

It may surprise you to know that the vast majority of people on this list play other music in addition to IR Trad on their whistles. In fact, based on the comments I’ve read here over the last 2 + years, I’d say IR Trad may not be the most commonly played music among list members.

And personally, I’d prefer the sound and ergonomics of a keyed whistle as opposed to simply using a recorder or alternately “recorderizing” a whistle with multiple holes. An Overton, for example, sounds (to my ear) nothing like a recorder, so I personally think that making one chromatic wouldn’t be duplicating what’s already out there in terms of currently existing musical instrument “Voices”.

Interesting topic you’ve started here Erik.

Loren



[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-11-20 10:56 ]

6

I have no idea how these whistles sound with the extra holes. I imagine a hybrid whistle is inevitable down the road for people who play music outside the Irish tradition. Irish music has caught on in a big way and that has made whistles more widely known. As they insinuate their way into other traditions, we’ll see innovators who are not prejudiced by the Irish tradition. What I mean is that the Irish tradition may be irrelavent to where the whistle ends up. On the other hand, the simple 6-hole whistle will very likely be the mainstay of the Irish tradition and hybrids will be probably not gain much attention. I say that because people learn the basics on a basic whistle and become used to it’s customary sound. I myself like the simplicity of the unadorned 6-hole variety, whether brass or in a nice wood.
Tony

7

Although I find the extra hole concept appealing,the reality may be an instrument that is more dificult to play instead of easier.The fact is,I find 6 holes complicated enough and my daughters recorder only serves to confuse me as it has, as well as the additional holes, holes within the additional holes:-?..all up ten holes total! Mike :slight_smile:

8

I think the only way to find out is
to make such instruments and try them
out. I saw an overton high D with
a thumb hole and a pinky hole, barely
understood it, and of course couldn’t
play it. But if I had had the
opportunity to play it for a month,
well…! I think that something
that sounds like a whistle and
is more easily chromatic would
be great fun.

9

Although I find the extra hole concept appealing,the reality may be an instrument that is more dificult to play instead of easier.

Based on my experience with an 8-hole “modal” Overton, which has an F-nat thumb hole and a (low) C-nat hole for the little finger of the left hand, there’s no doubt that it’s more complicated than a standard whistle.

I use this whistle for dance gigs and sessions in very noisy pubs, but 99% of the time it might as well be a standard whistle, the way I use it.

After some eager experimentation at first, during which I discovered that tunes such as The Bunch of Keys, Splendid Isolation, etc. were suddenly much accessible, I haven’t put the requisite practice into really mastering the animal. What I find most difficult is the “pincer” action involving both thumb and fingers to move from F-nat to low D (or worse, low C). You also have to work out when to put your thumb back on its hole when moving from the F-nat up to higher notes involving the left hand only. It just needs serious practising. (It’s on the to-do list!)

The possibilities are real, though. I’m sure Mary Bergin, with her amazing half-holing technique, and other players too, could play you a tune such as the Bunch of Keys etc. with great aplomb. But it’s not a tune that whistlers seem to flock to. And to me there’s no doubt that you can do the job more easily and more cleanly with a thumb hole. You can also get a decent roll on the thumb hole, which I’d love to hear someone do with half-holing.

As for Peter’s point about colour, well you can still use half-holing if you want to.

I’d never have thought of the modal design had Colin Goldie not suggested it to me. But if you accept these innovations, it seems to me there’s no reason for not adding a G# thumb hole for the top hand. Which would definitely complicate the playing of the instrument in passages that involved removing both thumbs in quick succession. And if you accept a G# hole, well, why not a few keys here and there… you’ll quickly end up with
a curiosity.

I’d be surprised if extra-hole designs become widespread, let alone standard. (I’m only interested in IR-Trad, as most of you know. If I wanted to play church music I think I’d go for the saxophone, not the whistle.) The main reason is that not many people will want to learn technique that is of no use on 99.9999999% of the whistles circulating in the world. (That’s why everyone sticks with the standard typing keyboard, rather than learn the apparently much faster more efficient and less straining Dvorak layout.)

People come up with what they claim to be improvements on the design of the violin with amazing regularity. None of them every catch on, though…

10

This is a most interesting discussion!

It seems to be a characteristic of human nature to assume things maintain a steady-state. By “steady-state”, I mean a state in which change does not occur or occurs very slowly. However, the reality is that there is almost nothing is in life that is steady-state because most things change.

One aspect of this is what we consider to be “traditions”. Traditions are nothing more than common practices of yesteryear that we continue to practice today. Question: Why do we continue to practice them? Answer: Because they used to do it that way (Yes, its kind of a tautology isn’t it?). Yet, the traditions of today will eventually be replaced by new traditions as new practices become commonplace. In other words, many of our today’s traditions will be replaced (or will evolve) sometime in the future. The point being that when we refer to a specific “tradition” it doesn’t mean as much as we think it does (or would like it to) outside of a certain timeframe.

Whether we like it or not musical traditions are not exempt from inevitable change. This discussion has mentioned IR Trad several times like it somehow exits in a steady-state. Sorry, IR Trad isn’t exempt from change and to assume it is (or will be) is a bit naive. Sure, some IR Trad tunes may be hundreds of years old but the manner in which they are played has changed significantly even in the last 30 years. There have been several discussions on this very board over how the style of so-called IR Trad music has changed in the last few decades so I don’t want to get into that. Musical instruments change as well. Let’s consider one of “traditional” Irish instruments, the uillean pipes. As I understand it, uillean pipes are now mostly fully chromatic instruments whereas in years past this was not the case. Yet, because the instrument changed for most the uillean pipes are still considered to be “traditional Irish bagpipes”. For better or for worse, change in musical traditions is not only inevitable but is also impossible to predict. TonyHiggins said, “the simple 6-hole whistle will very likely be the mainstay of the Irish tradition and hybrids will be probably not gain much attention”. IMO this is not the case because it assumes that the “Irish tradition” of tomorrow will be the same as the “Irish tradition” of today when, in fact, it probably will not be.

So, what is to happen to whistles? IMO the diversification in the basic design of a whistle is inevitable. I don’t think “traditional” six hole whistles are going away anytime soon (and probably will never go away completely) but I think that, in response to changing musical traditions, whistlemakers and musicians will investigate new materials (like carbon-fibre, fibreglass, and polycarbonate) and new whistle designs (like keyed whistles and whistles with more than six-holes).

I think we are already seeing this evolution of the whistle. Consider that the “tin” whistle is only 150 years old (before that they were made of wood), the “low” whistle design (at least its modern aluminum variant)is about 30 years old (thanks Bernhard), and
we now have a low whistle with offset fingering (Reyburn Low). Its inevitable that some whistlemaker who thinks “outside the box” will come up with a new (and perhaps radical) design that will be widely adopted in whistledom. Who knows, perhaps a change in the design of the whistle may even influence a new musical tradition?

11

A quick reply to this last bit: I never assumed the tradition wouldn’t change, I said somewhere else before that it must change to stay alive and it does but in it’s own time and on it’s own terms.
And be sure every genuine improvement will be embraced, I can imagine that on the day the Generations arrived in the shops all the Clarke’s went out of the door. Only: no significant change has taken place since, to be honest I don’t come across any low whistles or wooden ones outside the tourist season.
Changes over the past decades, maybe, fashions have come and gone but at grassroots level there hasn’t been a huge change, don’t mistake bands making a living with ‘the tradition’.
As for the Uilleann pipes: these remain greatly unchanged, the design I play goes back nearly twohundred years. I those days the chanter was fully keyed which means a range of chromatic semi tones is available to the instrument (in those days the professional pipers were required to play all sorts of music from operatic airs to god knows what). The pipes are by no means a fully chromatic instrument in the sense they can play in different keys, they are very much restricted to their basic keys and their related minors (eg D/G Am Em). The keys are there buit in general they are not much use to the player because there is little call for their use. The only significant change that has taken place is the development of the wide bore loud sounding concert pitch pipes about a century ago.

12

Hmmm..If you add all the holes and keys…wouldn’t you wind up with a fipple clarinet?

13

On 2001-11-20 16:16, garycrosby wrote:
Its inevitable that some whistlemaker who thinks “outside the box” will come up with a new (and perhaps radical) design that will be widely adopted in whistledom.

I’m quite sure that people will come up with radical new designs, Gary, but I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for them to be generally adopted. Look at the history of new violin designs - many have been loudly trumpeted and then quietly and quickly forgotten.

The Irish took the bagpipes to their most highly developed and sophisticated form, but that was nearly two hundred years ago. Every other instrument played in the tradition has been borrowed from somewhere else, starting with the fiddle, tin whistle, concert flute, through to the guitar, banjo, concertina, melodeon, chromatic accordion, bouzouki… Based on this historical trend I would think it far more likely for Irish musicians to adopt, say, the kaval than a radical new whistle design.

Brendan Breathnach made a sarcastic comment in one of his books about the concertina being the only instrument ever invented by an Englishman (this was before Overton low whistle), but thinking about it I’m not sure the Irish have invented even one instrument, unless adding the regulators to the uillean pipes counts.

14

I think that we sometimes mistake utility for tradition.

Let’s look at the 6 hole design.

First, don’t let the factory made, injection molded, extruded brass “traditional” Generations fool you - the whistle has been around for several THOUSAND years. We’re not talking hundred. Most major cultures have some form of the simple whistle (though it is true that they are often of the 7 or 8 hole variety). It just happens that the notes in our western music are ideally suited for our finger spread (which came first, who knows?). Also, this is all possible without utilizing our relatively weak pinkies.

Further, because the whistle is not chromatic it is widely accessible to those that have little formal music background, which makes it an ideal folk instrument - it’s hard to play in the wrong key if you’ve only got one to play in. Case in point: how many times do we see posts asking about key transposition that say, “I’ve been playing for a little while now; will someone explain how the different keys work?”

So I don’t think that it’s possible to consign the design of the whistle solely to tradition. It’s ergonomics, practicality and tradition all rolled into one compact design.

Peace,
Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-11-21 03:36 ]

15

Another thought.

I have seen Bernhard Overton mentioned several times as the inventor of the low whistle. While I greatly admire what he has done for his modernization of the low whistle and its introduction into popular culture, I do not believe him to be the originator.

Here is a picture of a Romanian Low Whistle. It’s a junky tourist variety and plays horribly so don’t run out and get one - I got it for the decoration. It’s about 4" longer than my low d Overton. Now, it is possible that the maker of this whistle was influenced by the Overton, but I’m guessing not.

And I don’t think that the Romanians cornered the low whistle market either.

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-11-21 03:25 ]

16

Just a couple comments to add to the discussion. I play a Burke Al D Pro made by MIke Burke with a Cnat thumb hole. I have a left hand disability that makes both cross fingering and (especially) half-holing virtually impossible. I do not consider my special whistle as anything but a whistle and play mostly Irish music. Also, as to how it sounds: my husband has an identical Burke with no thumb hole and to my ear, they are identical. They sound so cool played together! — Nancy F

17

This is a fun discussion. Here’s my contribution. First, a simple comment, then a question. I play lots of instruments, and the main things that I enjoy about the whistle (compared to others) are its simplicity, light weight, and the fact that you have to try very hard to destroy one. :slight_smile: I’ve commented on this before: There are instruents that sound as beautiful as the whistle, but the simplicity really appeals, both for utilitarian reasons (for an elementary teacher, backpacker, etc.) and just because I like the idea. Adding a bunch of keys, extra holes, etc. would make the whistle less appealing to me, not more.

OK, that comment turned out being not-so-simple, but the idea is. :slight_smile: As for my question…I think it would be best in its own thread.

Tom

18

Tom,

I totally agree with you that the whistle’s simplicity is one of it’s greatest charms - much like the keyless flute. Having said that, I see no reason why whistles shouldn’t have keys as an option, just like the Irish flute.

I can’t understand why some folks have no problem keyed Irish flutes, yet they balk at the idea of adding keys or additional holes to a whistle. Virtually all the other instruments that have been mentioned (for playing Ir-trad music) are chromatic. Why shouldn’t chromatic whistles be an option as well? Whistle players have rights too ya know! :slight_smile:

Loren

19

Now let’s be very clear about this: it’s not that I am dead against any changes in the instrument. What I said was I don’t see these changes catching on as they are surplus to requirement. Why create a chromatic instrument for a music that is in itself non chromatic. Flutes have keys. Yes, they used to be called German flutes because that’s where they came from. They were designed and intended for a different music. Most Irish flutemakers will make you an unkeyed flute, keys are extras for those who are willing to spend the extra money but they are just that: extras.
I sense that some of you think this discussion is about whether changes in an instrument could be considered ‘traditional’ or not, this is not the issue. As Stevie said above , new instruments have always been readily incorporated into the tradition, but only if they suited the traditon itself. The tradition changes, gradually and steadily. The moment the music should expand into chromatic territory, which I don’t see happening as it’s very character is based in modal music, players will adapt to an instrument to suit the music and only then the changed instrument will catch on.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-11-24 13:04 ]