Aluminum vs brass

Whistle
1

Anyone have an opinion on the sound of aluminum vs brass? (stupid question…of course you do! :wink: )

I’m considering a Burke low D EZ in aluminum but Mike told me (when I enquired) that he would be producing the low D in brass. Now I’m torn as to which I want. Wait for a while for brass or get the aluminum and enjoy it now. :boggle:

2

I prefer Brass, but I’d be hard pressed to explain it. It seems to sound ‘warmer’ to me. I have brass, aluminum, delrin, diamonwood, copper and nickle ones, and they all have their own little qualities that make me love them. That said, half of my most favored ones to play are brass.

3

I’ve had a brass Copeland low D and Overton and MK low Ds. The brass is warmer; the aluminium is brighter. Sometimes the difference is subtle. The MK is nearly as warm as the Copeland.

I find the difference more pronounced in high D’s. For example, Burke high D’s like the DAN versus the DBN. Micheal Burke describes the DAN as “… Bright and sweet …”.

4

The only honest answer I could give you on that question is - I dunno!

Since you are talking Burkes I wouldn’t think any other maker’s brass would serve as a good basis for comparison. I play both Burke brass and aluminum whistles in keys from high Eb to Bb but that’s where the brass Burkes stopped last time I checked. I favor the tone of te brass. And since Mike has not made a Low D in brass up to this point, no one has any experience with that whistle. I have owned several aluminum Buirke low D’s and one composite - all very good whistles. I am sure a brass Burke low D would be nice. You could be the first on your block to own one. This is brand spanking new territory. And you have just scooped the rest of C&F’s Burke faithful with the news. Woohoo!

I just checked the Burke website, and yes, there are new brass models listed.

One thing to think about though, brass can be heavy. Low D whistles are pretty big. Wonder how much a Burke low D would weigh in brass versus the aluminum. The alumium is nice and light. The composite Burke is almost weightless.

5

Brass can be heavier, but not necessarily. The Howard Low D is made of brass, and it is quite light. The thickness of the material makes a lot of difference.

6

Annie, I have no argument with your logic, The weight of the Howard is quite managable. Material thickness will effect the weight. However, the design of the Howard is more straight forward than a Burke low D. The current Howard has a plastic mouthpiece on a simple tube. The original Howards had a brass head I think.

The Burke design incorporates many more metal pieces. I was assuming Mike would leave the design of the brass low D similar to the Viper and just vary the materials - just as he does in the high D, C, Bb, etc. whistles. The difference in weight between a Burke brass high D and an aluminum high D is very noticable. I don’t have an accurate scale here or I would weigh a Burke high D in brass and one in aluminum and calculate the percentage difference. Then I could weigh the aluminum Viper low D and calculate a predicted weight for the brass low D. That was the mental exercise I was going through when I made my original point. It’s all conjecture at this point anyway since we haven’t seen or heard what Mike is planning. Best to go to the source, eh? Cheers.

Feadoggie

7

That it is. I will hopefully be able to try one come April’s St. Louis Tionól http://www.tionol.org/. Mike is usually there, with wife and whistles. Great folks!!

BTW - I wasn’t intending to argue with you, just to point out that brass isn’t always going to be heavier.

8

Well what kind of brass and what kind of aluminum (metallurgical composition) and how each were treated in the fabrication process?

9

It’s really only intended as a generalization. Many have expressed opinion to the tones of certain metals, I really don’t want to get into the semantics of material blends. I couldn’t go there if I wanted to as I am not a metallurgist and can only say that this is silver, bronze, brass, copper, etc. :slight_smile:

10

I honestly can’t see why there would be a difference, assuming the brass and aluminum whistles were machined to the exact same specifications. It’s the air column inside the whistle that vibrates and produces the sound, not the walls of the whistle. Same pretty much applies to wooden whistles: I don’t really see a huge difference between various woods, as long as they’re reasonably hard. Some of the “softer” woods like maple don’t always bore as smoothly as something like blackwood and that slightly rough bore seems to soften the tone of the whistle, but I don’t think that the actual hardness of the wood is responsible.

11

So Paul, you’re saying that it’s more the lay of the land than the dirt the lands made of! :stuck_out_tongue:

12

Come on Paul; we are getting close to the concrete flute argument. One could ask Mike Burke why he states on his web site that aluminium sounds brighter than brass and that brass sounds warmer than aluminium. One could compare his DAN and DBN or the DBSBT to the DASBT which I believe differ only in alloys.

Wall thickness can also effect the sound even if the air column is identical. Lots of variables. I believe one can also just trust one’s ears and not try to force what we hear to conform to a theory or formula.

After all, if we believed the physics that are sometimes cited; all whistles would sound the same. Anyway, I’m not arguing really, it’s just my insignificant view; and what is my view worth as I don’t play Generations and prefer neo-whistles :wink: :wink: :wink: :smiley:. Cheers, Cyril.

13

The simple act of asking whether there is a tonal difference between Al and CuZn already makes several assumptions:

  • There’s only one grade or kind of each metal;
  • Whistle makers who make CuZn or Al whistles basically all buy the same grades of each;
  • Each commercially available metal is compositionally, mechanically, microstructurally homogeneous;
  • Any mechanical or metallurgical processing of these metals do not have any impact on the tone;
  • That any tonal differences between the materials can be audibly detected above the whistle’s design and its fabrication methods (which we know affect tone);
  • That any tonal differences between the materials can be audibly detected above the player’s style, competence, and different playing environments.

There is no verifiable “proof” of any causal relationship between whistle material and a particular kind of tone.

14

Precisely, yes, one should ask. I’d be interested in his response and while we’re all waiting, I suggest some further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

edit: BTW, great whistles Mr. Burke. I have aluminum and brass versions in different keys. FWIW, I didn’t consider the material when I bought them used though.

15

Let’s not get too linear in our thought process; okay? If you want to parse; please read accurately. I said: “One COULD ask Mike Burke”; not SHOULD as that would be appealing to authority.

One might ask one’s self why would a maker use more than one material to make a whistle.

This is one of those subjects that has been beat to death. Cheers.

16

Could, in this context, is still an “appeal to authority”. The intent of your statement is substantively unchanged with either word. Parsing is fun.


This is called “diversion” because now your suggesting the answer is self evident (yes, I’m still parsing). IMO, the reason why a maker will use more than one material is because the market demands it and the maker is willing and able to supply it.

This is called “defeatism”, which is a tactic often used when the logical argument has been exhausted. See you at the next dead horse.

17

I’m not sure why it is that when certain topics come up that require only simple opinions and observations someone must always enter rocket science into the equation. I had really intended this post to provide me some other players insight into playing brass versus aluminum as my experience with either is negligable. I never envisioned myself asking a maker or seller if his whistles were made of aircraft aluminum or or lawn chair quality aluminum. As Annie, Feadoggie and Mike himself have said there are differences in tone though some makes/models may be subtle. I probably should have taken Mike’s opinion on his instruments alone instead of trying to form a common concensus to help me decide on which to buy from him. Lesson learned.:frowning:

18

Well, I didn’t want to sound stupid because I have an opinion and no real reasoning behind it, but here goes. I like brass. I don’t really now why other than my favorite whistles are all brass. The only aluminum whistle I still have is the Chieftan I just got. Actually, I do have one reason. Aluminum seems colder and is harder to warm warm up. It also seems to cool faster. But on top of that, I just think the brass sounds warmer (not meaning temperature).

The preceding is just a simple opinion and is not intended to be taken for fact. Any resemblance to another’s opinion is purely coincidental.

19

I will rephrase as again, you misinterpreted my remark. I basically tried to say; it seems you enjoy arguing and scoring your points. Are we all legends in our own minds? Cheers

20

Personal attack, a diversionary and juvenile tactic when the intellectual argument cannot be won.

Aluminum has better themal conductivity. The effects of this will be more pronounced if the Chieftain is larger than your other whistles.