advice please

Irish Flute
1

As I stated in my first post, I’m not just new to C&F, but to fluting in general. I’ve putzed around with a whistle for some time, but am still not a session level there either. Took a beginner flute class in E Durham and have been spending most free hrs since either practicing on my Delrin M&E or surfing the web for possible purchase of a wood flute. Have read many posts directed at first time buyers, and have even gotten to try a Burns Folk flute as well as a couple of other more expensive flutes.

The thing is that I seem to have reached some kind of plateau with my M&E, and am still having a great deal of trouble with the second octave (the B in particular). I checked Mike’s site and found that indeed my cork was a good inch out of position, and changing that helped a bit, but I’m still wondering if an easier to play embochure opening might be something to investigate. The M&E I have is an older one I got used off the internet and the embochure appears to be a simple oval with no cutouts. I’m considering getting in line for a keyless McGee with rounded rectangle embochure (Rudall 5088?) knowing that with such a respected manufacturer, even if it doesn’t work out for me, resale should be easy.

What do you think, should I keep hammering away at my M&E in the hopes that my embochure will improve to match the flute, or should I look into alternatives?

Also, does anyone know of a ITM flute instructor in the Rochester, NY area?

Thanks

2

Be welcome here! :slight_smile:

I have two M&E flutes, though my Hamilton gets the vast majority of my playing. (One of my M&E’s is on loan right now, anyway.)

Both M&E flutes are very easy players, very forgiving, well in tune, and both play very easily into the third octave.

Bear in mind there’s only so much any of us can tell you without seeing or hearing you play, but it sounds to me, from your post, that you’ve still got some work to do on embouchure and breathing to get that second octave speaking easily and cleanly.

I’m not sure that changing to a different flute at this time is likely to help you much; also, I’m not sure you’re at the point yet to start to have an idea of what sort of flute you’re likely to sound your best on.

If you know a flutist, you might see if they’ll try your flute. They can verify for you if the flute is playing well.

–James

3

I think James is right here. The M&E is a good flute and should last you quite some time. I think it is wrong to change flutes like clothes, especially if you’re a beginner. The flute has to fit you, but you have also to get used to a flute - which is hard if you don’t know how to do it! I know that most beginners want to blame the flute as soon as they think they don’t move on - I did it myself… :wink:
The first weeks and months are the hardest bit, with any flute, no matter if it’s a super-duper Olwell or a M&E or whatever. Just keep on it and don’t think about your bad tone or your slow fingers, think about what you have achieved already. The time will come when you take the flute and just play the music without having to think about the technical side. It just takes time, as with everything. :slight_smile:

By the way, the second octave actually needs less air than the first one! Sounds stupid, but it’s just like that - if I play a second octave Eb on my flute and blow harder into the flute, the note drops to a sharp 1st octave Eb. :slight_smile:

4

Ditto to what James says, if you haven’t mastered the M&E you may not have better luck with a different Flute. Although, personally I find playing on Delrin and PVC quite different from wood, but that is just me and I don’t think that is the general opinion within the Fluting community.

Flute playing takes time and you shouldn’t try to rush yourself M&Es are fine Flutes to learn on and when you can play that well you should be able to play other Flutes without much difficulty. At which point you can make a more informed decision on which Flute would suit you best.

As James said there isn’t much advice we can give without hearing and/or seeing you play.

Oh yeah, Welcome!

5

right you are James…

the 2nd octave is easier

this will make sense after you’re good enough

relax, it is quite simple to make the 2nd octave difficult

6

Ta to all for the fine welcome and sage advice. I’ll keep at it then. There are starting to be times when it begins to come together and I can produce a credible 2 octave scale. As soon as the flute shifts what seems like only a few mm I lose it. Time and practice needed I guess. Thanks again

7

The flute is a cruel instrument. If you’re having trouble, it’s probably you and not the flute. Even if you finally seem to master something you’ll stumble on it again. That’s why it’s so cruel.

8

This may sound odd, but every day play some long slow tones. Don’t start with low D or with anything in the second octave–start with a nice easy note like low G.

Don’t try to blow really hard, just try for the cleanest, clearest tone you can get. Volume-wise, try to play about medium volume, not right out to the edge.

Move the flute a bit and see if the tone gets clearer. If it did, remember what you did. Try rolling in or out, or moving the flute forward or back a bit, or even a bit sideways.

As you find the clearest sound you can get right then, try to remember what it feels like…how you have your lips, how far the flute is rolled in, whether you are holding it level or tilted down a bit.

Then move up to the A and do it again.

Work note at a time until you are at the second octave A. It may take days to finally make it up there, and that’s ok, take your time. Each time you pick up the flute, try to remember what it felt like to make the best tone you’ve made so far.

Good luck, and, if you like, keep us informed on your progress.

Best wishes,

–James

9

please see my old post, second bottom from the page:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=53133&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

before attempting the exercises, please watch these videos by james galway, and master the headjoint/octave jump concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcXRzZZv1mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQg0vScnQ8E

you will be able to do it on an irish flute headjoint, with a tuning slide.

notice that he covers the embouchure hole a lot. that is a good thing! it is also very irish. the flute you have is designed to play like that. silver flutes can be played both covered and uncovered. the irish flutes (and the flutes they are based on) are designed only to be played with the lip covering the hole, i.e. the headjoint rolled in, as james galway plays the silver flute.

so please, cover your embouchure hole/roll in! keep adjusting to find how far you should roll in–it will change over time (also, no more than 45 degrees is a good benchmark).

notice his embouchure is pouty and frowny, not smiley. the frowning gets the muscles right, the pouting brings them up to the flute. the change of octave is done by the sides of the lips coming in, not by the air pressure.

look into a mirror: try to frown. if you cannot frown, you need to learn how to. i didnt know how to frown, so my uncle taught me. remember, pouting is not frowning. many people, when i ask them to frown (out of the context of the flute) just pout. frowning is the cornerstone of good tone, as they are the muscles you will be using.

10

I believe that the embouchure is really a personal thing. In the end you have to find what suits you best and produces the sound you like. If you look at many different irish fluters, you’ll see almost as many different embouchures as there are fluters. Classical players will not agree with this, because whenever you get into classical music, there’s a golden rule of how everything needs to be done, it might differ slightly from teacher to teacher but usually it’s basically the same, that’s my impression anyway. But I do think that in the folklore tradition, it differs much more.
Sir Galway said, don’t use the smiling embouchure, yet there are lots of people using that and produce wonderful sounds, many sound like crap, but many sound like crap using the frowning embouchure as well.
I’m not an expert at all, but my opinion is, if it works; it’s fine. There’s always a better embouchure, but it’s definately not certain that one style fits everyone. Also, different embouchure styles fit different flutes. I’ve noticed that the flutes with large sweet spots, rectangular embouchures and such lends themselves very well to playing with uncovered embouchure holes.

Again, I’m not an expert, I’ve been playing for maybe 4 or 5 years. But my embouchure is what have seemed like one of my strong points as a fluter. The few accomplished players who have seen me play have often remarked on that, and I think I have the crappy Dixon 2pc that I spent my first few months with to thank for that. My lips are not pointing down when I play, it’s not really a smiling embouchure, but they are curved very slightly upwards at the sides. Sort of like in this video of the great Seamus Egan: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu26Y0DXyT8

just my 2 öre

11

I wouldn’t accuse the classical world of being doctrinaire either… There are a lot of opinionated people around, but they don’t agree with each other so that is all right…

Here is a link to some photos of different (classical) embouchures, all of them chosen for belonging to players with exceptional tone. Just shows how much they can vary and still be good…

http://www.larrykrantz.com/embpic.htm

Chris

12

That is very much my experience too. The goal is for the flute to not shift. It has a pretty narrow sweet spot that you as the player have to find and maintain. It is slightly different for every note on the scale, and certainly between the first and second octave. Straying just a little bit to the left or right (figuratively of course, there is more than one dimension) will result in an immediate loss of tonal quality, volume and/or pitch. Finding that spot and hanging on to it can be tedious at first, but as you develop a more natural feeling for the instrument, it gets easier. Eventually, it will become second nature to maintain a strong tone reliably and effortlessly throughout the scale.

An exercise that I’ve learned specifically for improving the tone on individual notes is to really take the time to find it. Try around on the same note until you are satisfied, and then hold it and try to bring it out as best as you can. Then, play a fragment of a tune that is leading up to that note and try to “land” on it securely, and hold it. Eg. if you want to practice the upper E, you could play the opening phrase of the Kesh:

D | GGG GAB | AAA ABd | e (hold and tweak)

13

As far as the assembly of a Boehm flute goes, what you have said is largely true, Henke.

For instance, nearly every Boehm flute player on planet Earth has been taught to assemble, and to hold, their flute in the same way.

The tone holes on the top of the foot joint are exactly lined up with the tone holes on the top of the flute body, and the embouchure hole is then exactly lined up with the tone holes, such that the centers of the embouchure hole and all of the top tone holes are exactly in a line.

The flute is then held in the “up” or horizontal position, parallel to the floor, and then played with all of those holes pointing straight up, while the player adjusts their own embouchure accordingly. In particular, the flute’s embouchure hole is not rolled in, or out, but kept straight up.

Such a position allows a player to produce the full range of what a flute can do. Similarly, rolling the head joint inwards limits what a flute can do.

Now, it’s understood that there are certain “traditional” methods of playing an ITM flute, sometimes including rolling the head joint inwards, for instance, but, as Scotty once said, “Captain, I canna’ change the laws of physics.” And so, believe it or not, the same “laws” of the “classical” flute also equally apply to virtually any other transverse flute.

Yup, it’s true, that much sought after “reedy” sound of ITM can be developed with the embouchure hole pointing straight up on virtually any transverse flute, although the quality of that sound will vary with the type of flute.

“Classical” flute training exists for at least one good reason. In particular, why argue with proven success?

:wink:

14

It’s also good to make sure your fingers are completely covering the holes. Even a tiny bit of leakage can make for a fair amount of flute wonkage.

15

Just a note, when I was studying Boehm-system (silver) flute under Dr. Steinquest, he had me experiment with a couple of different ways of holding the flute, the “standard” way which I’ve since come to understand is the Rockstro / James grip (nope, I’m not that James!!! :laughing: ), and another approach where you roll the headjoint in and balance the keywork on top of the flute, so that the keys actually point up and out instead of straight up like they usually do.

I can still play either way, but I never really found much advantage in the second approach; the keywork just isn’t that heavy.

But the point I’m making here is that the classical / art-music approach to flute playing isn’t nearly so cut-and-dried and by-the-numbers as you might think when viewing it from outside.

–James

16

many good players have a smiling, upturned embouchure. seamus is wasting energy, and causing undue tension to play like that.

louis armstrong is one of my favorite singers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My9B4uQYJn4

but guess what–the way he uses his voice causes undue stress and too much tension. same with his trumpet playing. the reason he started to sing was that he damaged his lips by his trumpet playing. i am not saying seamus will damage his lips, but that there is more than one way to get a good sound. it is very personal, and you can have an inefficient way of doing it, and still be great.

i dont believe that it all really matters in the end. seamus is a better musician than me. but his embouchure is not as flexible as it could be. if he used his frowning muscles more, he would have an even more flexible tone.

laury nugent, by standards of how i recommend embouchure, would not be a good embouchure, but i think he has a great emgbouchure–it is not how i would do it, it is not frowny, but i still think it is good, and better than mine. so, even though i recommend something, i do not think it is the best, the only way, or in any way superior to another embouchure style. i love larry’s playing, i love the sound he gets out of his flute, and i will never be as good a flute player as him. larry also plays left handed. i dont think he recommends it. should we all play left handed?

17

yes, they can be still good, and probably were. unfortunately we do not have sound clips to go with the pictures.

what the pictures dont tell is how they are doing it. i am by no means a proficient classical player, but i had a teacher who taught me how to use the jaw to tune (even though he did not himself) in classical music. if you do not do a frowny pout as james galway does, you have to have use your jaw to tune. it is a nightmare! some of the best players in the world do it, and they are just wasting their time and their energy.

if you dont know what jaw tuning is, it is exactly what is sounds like. as you play, you adjust your embouchure to hit different notes and adjust certain tones. however, they will be slightly out of tune. you move your jaw around to get them in tune. if you play a second octave D scale, tuning with your jaw, it is very difficult. many people do it. you get a better tone, much easier, and much more flexibly, with the embouchure james galway describes. you can jump from the low B (on the footjoint), to high C (with the gizmo key), with the same amount of effort as from D to d. if you jaw tune, it is not so easy!

the end result is the same, but let me tell you… when you have a smiley embouchure, like seamus egan, or some of the people in the picture, you have to do a lot of throat, jaw, and mouth acrobatics to be able to play in tune in classical music. also, if you play an antique english, 8 keyd flute, it is almost impossible to have a smiling embouchure and play it in tune.

the 8 flute was designed to play with the embouchure i describe. charles nicholson designed the flute to be rolled in, with the embouchure hole covered, and he also tuned the octaves and individual notes by pulling the flute towards or away from his jaw–not by changing the location of his jaw, which is the only way to tune a flute if you are smiling. if you look at james galway tuning his octave, his lips push away the flute, and pull it back in. it is the exact same thing nicholson talks about here: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm

i have a nicholson copy. there is no other way to get it in tune. i also have a boehm flute, you can play it multiple ways and it still works. on the silver flute, you dont have to pull the flute away from you to tune the octaves with your lips (or your jaw), but on an antique, you cant just use your lips as james does, you have to pull out the flute, and thus move your lips, and thus pout, and thus frown.

if anybody out there can play classical music, in tune, on an antique english 8 key, and you smile, and do jaw tuning, god bless you. you are a saint.

18

If you haven’t already gone to Terry McGee’s web site, you might have a look. It is a store house of info.

Regarding the rounded rectangle embouchure: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/heads.html . It has a larger sweet spot and I have found it easier to get good tone and good volume. This was on a McGee Rudall Perfected.

Regarding how to hold the flute and how to develop your embouchure, Terry has a good excerpt of Nicholson’s approach: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm .

I closely followed the instructions and can now produce a reedy, dark, and hard tone.

Be patient with yourself and it will come. Cheers, Cyril.

19

here is matt molloy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHcDY76a_eY

you can see the side of his embouchure at the beginning, and his embouchure towards the end.

he is frowning.

i do not mean this as a comment on the musicianship between seamus egan and matt molloy. i think they are both top notch musicians. none better than the other. just different.

however, matt molloy’s embouchure is more flexible, more powerful, more subtle, and he is playing on an antique, which is innately very out of tune, and he is playing it on tune.

seamus’ embouchure, as seen in the video posted above, would not cut it on the flute matt is playing in the video, provided seamus wanted to play with the same variety of tone color, and to play with the same change in volume, and to play it in tune. the smiling just wouldnt work to get the same result.

smiley=unflexible and difficult
frowny pout=flexible and easier

however, as i said–it really doesnt matter in the end. they are both amazing musicians. better than me, that’s for sure! seamus plays the sound he wants, and matt plays the sound he wants. i am trying to help people make their lives easier, not say that any amazing musician isnt amazing.



i know i already have two posts in a row, but when i looked at the video, i had to post it. again, listen–matt has a more flexible embouchure. more tone colors. more dynamic contrast. and on a difficult flute.

that does not mean matt’s embouchure is better. just more flexible. again, the bottom line is good music is good music, regardless of the tone of your flute, how in tune you are, or how flexible your embouchure is.

20

Of course one is not forced to use the smile or the frowning approach - I personally just form the embouchure and play away, it doesn’t look like a smile or frowning or whatever. It’s very relaxed and some people asked me how I can play a Pratten with this kind of embouchure. Well, I don’t know, but I can… :wink:

It’s just all about finding the way that suits the individual best. There’s now general way how to do it.