A survey for non-accompanists

[monkey587]

@Bloomfield

Well, not supplying notes that are omitted from a tune with a gapped scale goes a long way, I think, although there are exceptions, of course. I particularly dislike it when a third is supplied, so that a tune suddenly becomes major or minor. There’s lots more, of course.

OK, that’s very specific and useful. I appreciate it

@Peter Laban

Out of all the accompanist I have encountered I must say Paul de Grae was one of the most gentle and least intrusive, carrying the music rather than pushing it in some direction or other, complementing it very nicely. Also: out of a fair amount of playing time Paul only picked up the guitar every now and again, just listening in the rest of the time.

I almost never play guitar at sessions, because, well, I don’t like it. I can’t really get useful feedback from that anyway because most of the people who show up at sessions I can get to are into the same modern groups like solas and altan, from which I derived my style but now are pretty far from my own taste. In other words, everyone seems to like it (or is too polite to say they don’t) except for me. Actually, I hate to say it, but I suspect most of them just don’t care either way as long as the playing’s not annoying… which is fine for them but not helpful to me.

When I play guitar for tunes, it’s usually with a solo fiddle (my fiancee) or for set dancing. The former scenario grants me a lot of leeway, and I’m trying to figure out an approach where I can support her without getting in the way.

[Bloomfield]

@Peter Laban

Out of all the accompanist I have encountered I must say Paul de Grae was one of the most gentle and least intrusive, carrying the music rather than pushing it in some direction or other, complementing it very nicely. Also: out of a fair amount of playing time Paul only picked up the guitar every now and again, just listening in the rest of the time.

I haven’t had a chance to play with Paul yet(I had hopes for the Catskills this year, but got too busy to go). But I certainly like what he says about accompanyment. In fact, he said he wanted to put my “rhythmic determinacy - harmonic indeterminacy” bit on a t-shirt.

In New York a dobro player from Nashville showed up a few weeks ago. Brilliant! It was great fun (although I wouldn’t want it every day). We got him to start a few old-timey tunes, and the sound and style was incredible. There’s a lesson in that, too: ultimately what matters is musicianship.

[SteveShaw]

@Bloomfield

In New York a dobro player from Nashville showed up a few weeks ago. Brilliant! It was great fun (although I wouldn’t want it every day). We got him to start a few old-timey tunes, and the sound and style was incredible. There’s a lesson in that, too: ultimately what matters is musicianship.

Musicians choose to play dobros?

[Chiffed]

@SteveShaw

@Bloomfield

In New York a dobro player from Nashville showed up a few weeks ago. Brilliant! It was great fun (although I wouldn’t want it every day). We got him to start a few old-timey tunes, and the sound and style was incredible. There’s a lesson in that, too: ultimately what matters is musicianship.

Musicians choose to play dobros?

There are probably whistle players out there who could floor you with a swanee whistle…

(appologies to Peter Schickle)

[dubhlinn]

@SteveShaw

@Bloomfield

In New York a dobro player from Nashville showed up a few weeks ago. Brilliant! It was great fun (although I wouldn’t want it every day). We got him to start a few old-timey tunes, and the sound and style was incredible. There’s a lesson in that, too: ultimately what matters is musicianship.

Musicians choose to play dobros?

You would need to be a very good musician to play one of those things.

Slan,
D.

[Ro3b]

Well, not supplying notes that are omitted from a tune with a gapped scale goes a long way, I think, although there are exceptions, of course. I particularly dislike it when a third is supplied, so that a tune suddenly becomes major or minor. There’s lots more, of course.

Predictably, that’s not something I think is such a big deal. I’d argue that interesting, effective accompaniment – and interesting, effective melody playing too – often requires filling in the gaps. But we’ve gnawed that bone to death already.

[talasiga]

@monkey587

…
In your ideal world, well, pretending for a minute that your ideal world includes a guitarist, what are some ways the “harmonic indeterminacy” could be preserved? Fewer chords? Thinner chords? A different chord the next time a passage comes around?

let me give the example of a type of pentatonic - a gapped mode we come across sometimes in ITM. I hear this a lot and I have seen it in whistle tablature - no 3rd and no 6th interval and the 7th is minor or flatted. (this is relative of major pentatonic scale if you use the 2nd interval of the major pent. as the tonic).

Monkey587 I play this on flute a lot in indic music. Friend accompanies me and he has a good backgroung in ITM guitar. You will notice that the interval relationship only accomodates only one consonant triadic chord - the one having the 5th as root note for the minor chord. So, I would expect the accompaniment would have the option of any of the following as appropriate:-

• the consonant triadic chord I mention
• the power chords (dominant pairings) of 7+4, 4+1, 1+5 and 5+1(of course) see note 1.
• minor mediant pairings 5+7, 2+4
• major mediant pairings of 7+2
• arpeggios of above
• song lines and improvised riffs ( I do not like accompany only musicians - every musician has a lead turn - it improves the accompanying sensitivity if nothing else).

note 1:-
one of the incidentally fantastic things about the major pentatonic and its 4 relatives is that they allow cascading pairings of power chord intervals.

[LadyDi]

Be the big strong tree I grow the flowering melodic vine on. Anything less is just annoying.

Don’t you mean - “Be the big strong tree on which I grow: the flowering melodic line.”?

;-p

[SteveS]

@Bloomfield

In New York a dobro player from Nashville showed up a few weeks ago. Brilliant!

Do you remember what his/her name was?

[lesl]

@monkey587

This is specifically directed towards people who don’t play backing instruments in ITM.

1. What instrument do you play?
2. What would you want from an accompanist?
3. Please list a few CDs that have guitar accompaniment that you find to be exceptional and why.

Thanks…

1. flute
2. What I really want is for the guitar accompaner to actually know the tunes and play along at least partly. You can always tell when an accompanist doesn’t know the actual notes of the tunes. I like to hear a rhythmic groove too, but not a thick wash of chordal sound to achieve it, and no mambas during hornpipes. “No thirds” is a safe bet..
3. Paul de Grae’s and Do/nal Clancy’s accompaniment.

I used to play guitar, but when I started flute I realized that the fingerpicky melody accomp guitar thing I used to do didn’t often fit with tunes. I’ve heard that used to great effect at times by Micheal O’Domnhaill may he rest, and also by Mary Coogan, but mostly as a song feature. I do enjoy listening to their tune backing too, especially when it is sparse.

Paul deGrae gave me my foundation in IrTrad guit 101 but I never got comfortable enough with finding my way around the walking basses, as my own guitar playing used to be chord based melody. So, ‘barring’ Dadgad with a capo, preferred to play the flute for melody once I could.

After I had learned some tunes on the flute, I was amazed hearing Do/nal Clancy accompaning those same tunes in a concert I attended. It gave the tunes another dimension without taking them where no man had gone before. I’d never heard those tunes accompanied before, so it was like if a horse had blinders on and then had them taken off. Reminded me of when I first got contact lenses and suddenly had all this peripheral vision. I thought that was just brilliant playing. And I’m sure he can play all those tunes on the guitar as well.

A cd I just thought of is Steve Holloway’s on the tracks which Do/nal plays on.

[SteveS]

Since there is a precedent of dobro discussion in this thread, I thought some might find this message from one of the dobro discussion lists interesting or amusing. I am sure it will elicit some off color remarks about my lovely home state of California. I am proud of it nonetheless.

From: Pete Grant <pete@petegrant.com>
Date: Jul 26, 2006 1:22 AM
Subject: [RESOGUIT-L] Dobro and Uilleann Pipes in California
To: “Resoguit-L@Elistas. Com” <resoguit-l@elistas.com>

Hey! I’m playing with Paddy Keenan (www.paddykeenan.com) again! We’ve five dates
in Northern California and it’s going to be great fun.

This is the real thing, and you won’t find many places to hear uilleann pipes
and whistle played by a complete master accompanied by one of your fellow
listers on dobro and pedal steel.

To me, the idea of being able to see Paddy Keenan in these settings… well,
it’s a musical opportunity of grand proportions. I’ve played with some great
players over the years, (www.petegrant.com/flash_playedw.html), and Paddy is
right up there at the top with the best of the best of them.

Pete Grant
Auburn, California

Saturday, August 5, 2006
Fagan’s Pub
2039 Kern Street,
Fresno, CA 93721
(559) 266-0225
www.faganspub.com

Wednesday, August 9, 2006
House Concert
Bonny Doon, CA (near Santa Cruz)
Contact Geoff at 821-425-5337

Friday, August 11, 2006
House Concert
Cupertino, CA
Contact Michael Timpanaro: 408-821-4086

Saturday, August 12, 2006
Plough & Stars
116 Clement Street at 2nd Avenue
San Francisco, CA
(415) 751-1122
www.theploughandstars.com

Sunday, August 13
7:00 PM
House Concert
Ophir, California (near Auburn)
email me for info mailto:concerts@petegrant.com

[Kevin_L_Rietmann]

Pipes, flute, piccolo, fiddle, whistle. Everybody can play the whistle, right?
Does lilting count?
Accompaners are out of my control (never gave one instructions except to agree with others that what they were doing was awful), I do like what Paul Brady does though. Or Alec Finn. Flat dynamics I guess. Dynamics in of themselves draw attention, never mind the chords. Backers should be resolutely ignorable. Hate drama, too. Stop and starters. I’ve a tape with Maire ni Ghrada playing with some very dramatic German guitarist that I can’t stand to listen to at all.
Some of my favorite musical moments have been just playing with the one melodical musicker. It’s much more challenging/interesting, you can really hear what’s going on.

[steph_c]

@Peter Laban

Out of all the accompanist I have encountered I must say Paul de Grae was one of the most gentle and least intrusive, carrying the music rather than pushing it in some direction or other, complementing it very nicely. Also: out of a fair amount of playing time Paul only picked up the guitar every now and again, just listening in the rest of the time.

Just got my yearly fix of playing (fiddle) with Paul playing guitar down in the Catskills. I always liked his accompaniment on recordings I heard, but playing with him is a fun and different experience altogether. The key? I suspect it’s that Paul knows and understands the tunes. No really. He’s just as much of a tune junkie/collector/listener as any ‘melody’ player I know. And I know some real hard-cases…ahem Brock/Sol/Dale…

The difference? He goes with you in the tunes - and even manages to plant ideas in your head about what to do with a tune while you’re playing it.

That’s one extreme - I realize not every guitar player can/wants to get so cozy with the tunes. At minimum I like it when guitar players listen to what’s happening in the melody and supply a steady rhythm that doesn’t cover it up.

And go ahead and flay me for this (but I stand by it regardless):

Do not attempt to play like John Doyle unless you are John Doyle. It is extremely jarring and irritating (unless you are John Doyle). Especially when done constantly (unless you are John Doyle, who doesn’t do it either).

We (by that I mean zouk-meister/newlywed Mark Warford) conducted Guitar Player Boot Camp/Re-education Sessions here a couple years back and it had a really positive impact in our area. Please PM me if you would like me to forward on the cheat-sheet/survival guide that was developed specifically for capable musicians new to backing irish tunes.

Cheers,
Stephanie

[monkey587]

@steph_c

We (by that I mean zouk-meister/newlywed Mark Warford) conducted Guitar Player Boot Camp/Re-education Sessions here a couple years back and it had a really positive impact in our area. Please PM me if you would like me to forward on the cheat-sheet/survival guide that was developed specifically for capable musicians new to backing irish tunes.

Cheers,
Stephanie

I had an inquiry about lessons a while back but it didn’t pan out, which is probably for the best, because I think she wants to play like John Doyle to accompany her kids who are learning to play like the woman from Altan, and I would have found it hard not to start off with the philosophical diatribes, which I suppose could be kinda offputting to someone who just wants to play with her kids.

@Kevin Reitman

Accompaners are out of my control (never gave one instructions except to agree with others that what they were doing was awful), I do like what Paul Brady does though. Or Alec Finn. Flat dynamics I guess. Dynamics in of themselves draw attention, never mind the chords. Backers should be resolutely ignorable. Hate drama, too. Stop and starters. I’ve a tape with Maire ni Ghrada playing with some very dramatic German guitarist that I can’t stand to listen to at all.
Some of my favorite musical moments have been just playing with the one melodical musicker. It’s much more challenging/interesting, you can really hear what’s going on.

I do like Alec Finn, although I’m not generally a fan of bouzouki. I like Eoin O’Neill better, but in any case most bouzouki players I’ve heard (probably just Donal Lunny on 100 CDs really) tend to try to play stuff that’s at least as busy as the melody and I find it disruptive. Alec Finn on the other hand, at least with Mary Bergin and Frankie Gavin, I feel is more sensitive to the melody.

I also prefer solo melody instruments. That’s a bit of a conundrum for someone who plays guitar in a band that has achieved a modicum of success (our gigs paid for our first CD, and gigs + CD sales are paying for the second). I’m not going to quit the band because we’re not purist enough, though. I can just be the whippersnapper guitarist in the band and the crotchety purist out.

[Cayden1]

@Kevin L. Rietmann

. I’ve a tape with Maire ni Ghrada playing with some very dramatic German guitarist that I can’t stand to listen to at all.
.

hehe Jens

[Kevin_L_Rietmann]

@Peter Laban

hehe Jens

Oh, maybe…heh, funny thing but I was going to use the term “Wagnerian” to describe the effect. Is that what this Doyle fellow sounds like? Big thundering pauses?
“Wagner has some great moments and dreadful quarter hours”
The other day I tried to listen to this tape of pipes/fiddle I got years ago. A Guiness book attempt for peppy tempos. Sounds painful.
A friend of mine thinks one of the biggest influences on Irish music in the last 30 years is cocaine. You won’t read about that in Irish Music magazine, I’d guess.

[Cathy_Wilde]

@steph_c

Do not attempt to play like John Doyle unless you are John Doyle. It is extremely jarring and irritating (unless you are John Doyle). Especially when done constantly (unless you are John Doyle, who doesn’t do it either)

!

At Augusta last week I got to hear John Doyle on the banjo & fiddle to boot (lefty, of course). Dammit, he’s ruining the fun for all of us … there won’t be anything left for the rest of us to play ! (My theory is that he and John Williams are going to secretly recreate the original Solas … as a DUO.)

Also, I heard lots of very nice work from Zan McCleod on guitar and zook … and you know who else is REALLY a lovely guitar accompanist? Eamonn O’Leary. Beautiful playing and great range. As a banjo player he of course knows the tunes, so that helps …

As I recall, he takes a few gorgeous turns on Live at Mona’s, so that might be worth a re-listen.

[Cathy_Wilde]

@monkey587

That’s a bit of a conundrum for someone who plays guitar in a band that has achieved a modicum of success (our gigs paid for our first CD, and gigs + CD sales are paying for the second). I’m not going to quit the band because we’re not purist enough, though. I can just be the whippersnapper guitarist in the band and the crotchety purist out.

I so share your pain. And alas, in my case I’ve noticed that over time it takes more and more pure-drop to rinse the bar-band-ringing out of my ears …

Double musical loves, double musical lives. Hmmm. There’s a topic.

[monkey587]

@Cathy Wilde

@monkey587

That’s a bit of a conundrum for someone who plays guitar in a band that has achieved a modicum of success (our gigs paid for our first CD, and gigs + CD sales are paying for the second). I’m not going to quit the band because we’re not purist enough, though. I can just be the whippersnapper guitarist in the band and the crotchety purist out.

I so share your pain. And alas, in my case I’ve noticed that over time it takes more and more pure-drop to rinse the bar-band-ringing out of my ears …

Double musical loves, double musical lives. Hmmm. There’s a topic.

Our St. Patricks Day performances were purely capitalistic in nature, but it was quite a wakeup call to finish a set of jigs and be yelled at by an old woman who looked like a watermelon/leprechaun hybrid that we should stop that nonsense and play irish music, as it’s st patrick’s day afterall, and on st patrick’s day she wants to hear irish music. I held back my response “you don’t want to hear irish music, you want to hear music about the irish”

Next year I plan to spend the day hiding under my bed.

[Cathy_Wilde]

We get that all the time. At least most of them are good-humored about it (They’d better be, if they’re content with Miller Lite dyed green). But don’t give up … remember, the yutzes buy the drinks that support the bar that hires the band that makes the CD financing go 'round!