a good clip on the ears

[talasiga]

@Peter Laban of Co. Clare

…
Also(and that’s a general remark that applies to a lot of sites I have looked at over time), almost every time I listen to soundsamples on a maker’s website it strikes me as odd that the samples are almost invariably of Irish music played by someone who does not know how to play irish music but plays some heavily tongued, halting style like a converted recorder player not really comfortable with a common way of playing the whistle. Which is all fine but effectively the samples fail to tell me anything useful about the whistles themselves (for example are odd sounding intonations part of the whistle or are they a result of the player’s not being too much at home on a whistle). In the past this had led me to not even bother asking about whistles I could otherwise have been interested in. I think a bit more care on this aspect would make the whistles on offer more attractive. (and again this is a general remark, the clips here weren’t the worst I heard although they didn’t really tell me much I would want to know about a whistle)

(originly posted in another [u]non-ITM specific[/u] C&F forum here)

I do not mean to be a surrogate moderator here. Just as an act of grass roots charity and proactivism I thought I would start this topic where participants may discuss the soundclips on whistle makers’ websites. I thought Peter Laban’s quote suitable to start the topic seeing as it is aimed at not ONE website but in general. I do not know what County Clare generals are like but I guess they are the same calibre as generals in other English speaking and English colonised countries as was India in the past …

[peeplj]

You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, methinks.

Here are the options:

1. Don’t use sound clips–then your customers buy your whistles based and appearance or reputation or both;

2. Use simple sound clips played by real people. Even though it will be offensive to a few, this is probably the best course, in my opinion. Simple clips let you hear the tone of the whistle, and you get a bit of an idea of how it’s responding for the player.

3. Use pro-level sound clips. The problems here: most players aren’t pros, and they aren’t going to be able to relate as meaningfully to advanced playing; it’s less likely to tell them what the whistle’s benefits for them would be. Also you have the problem of finding an advanced player and convincing him or her to do it.

I didn’t think the sound clips in question were that bad, myself. Maybe my ears aren’t quite as educated as some, but maybe that’s actually a good thing, as I don’t want to get quite so educated that I can’t enjoy “just regular playing” anymore.

Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it.

–James

[Redwolf]

@peeplj

You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, methinks.

Here are the options:

1. Don’t use sound clips–then your customers buy your whistles based and appearance or reputation or both;

2. Use simple sound clips played by real people. Even though it will be offensive to a few, this is probably the best course, in my opinion. Simple clips let you hear the tone of the whistle, and you get a bit of an idea of how it’s responding for the player.

3. Use pro-level sound clips. The problems here: most players aren’t pros, and they aren’t going to be able to relate as meaningfully to advanced playing; it’s less likely to tell them what the whistle’s benefits for them would be. Also you have the problem of finding an advanced player and convincing him or her to do it.

I didn’t think the sound clips in question were that bad, myself. Maybe my ears aren’t quite as educated as some, but maybe that’s actually a good thing, as I don’t want to get quite so educated that I can’t enjoy “just regular playing” anymore.

Just my $.02, probably worth exactly what you paid to read it.

–James

I agree with you entirely, James.

There’s also the fact that a pro…say, someone like Joanie Madden…can make ANY whistle that is even remotely functional sound wonderful. On the other hand, if it sounds good even when someone like plain old ordinary ME is playing it, perhaps it has something going for it!

There’s also the fact that the heavily ornamented style that some traditional players favor, while possibly “authentic” (for some styles, anyway) doesn’t really allow one to evaluate the tone of the whistle. I’d almost rather hear a nice, slow, scale (say each pitch played on a whole note) than Scollay’s Reel played at high speed and perfect rhythm, with every ornament known to man, when I’m trying to decide whether or not I might want to buy a whistle.

Redwolf

[Doug_Tipple]

do, re, me, fa, so, la, ti, do. How simple can it get? That’s all, folks.

[Cayden1]

I’ll make my point here: In the past I have looked at websites to see if a whistle that attracted my attention was for me. In more than one case I found the soundclips on the maker’s website to be played by someone struggling, someone barely out of the beginner-stages. In more than one case this put my off buying the whislte because I could not get a decent impression of the whistle and I didn’t want to pour 80-100 into a product I wasn’t sure I would enjoy.

I listen fairly specifically to what I want from an instrument and I want an example of the sound on a website to give me that information. If a player on a maker’s website is not able to control the intonation of the instrument he is playing, it is impossible to tell if that’s a problem with the whistle or with the player.

My post in the other thread caused, ofcourse, a bit of a storm (although as someone said one in a styrofoam cup). But someone else (in an e-mailed comment on things) suggested how people would react buying a piano and finding a twelve year old with two years of piano tuition under the belt hammering out Mary had a little Lamb on the piano seller’s website.

Some suggested they didn’t want a ‘pro’ to play clips. I must point out I never suggested that either but it would be good to have someone with a grasp and a basic control of the instrument playing. Someone both able to play the music (and if you don’t want to play Irish music, then don’t but don’t come out with something totally mangled and badly phrased and say "i’ll play what I like’ but play some music you are familiar with and good at) and basic technique so there aren’t any intonation issues you’d find in a beginner’s playing. Not too much too ask is it? All I am asking is a fair representation of an instrument so I can have some help (and I know a clip is only a help but you can get at least an impression from it) deciding if I want the instrument or not.

As for some of the comments posted here and elsewhere, this is not about me enjoying someone’s playing or not, this is about context. The playing would have been fine in other contexts, for example when posted for entertainment of the listener or showcasing the player’s development. Representing a whistle on a maker’s website was not a suitable context and it was that context I was very clearly referring to in my comment.

So petty attempts at sarcasm like james’:

Maybe my ears aren’t quite as educated as some, but maybe that’s actually a good thing, as I don’t want to get quite so educated that I can’t enjoy “just regular playing” anymore.

are out of place. Maybe I should remind James of the time he sent me this:

I have become convinced that in our interactions I have wronged you, not once but many times. […] I realize at this late date there is no reason you should accept an apology from me after I’ve made a horse’s ass out of myself so many times, but if you would consider accepting my apologies I would consider it a great favor.

and maybe ask him if he has reverted to his old ways? Because all I can see here is him trying to score points by reading meanings into my words I did not at any time imply.

[talasiga]

posts in the wrong topic a propos Peter Laban’s post:

@StevieJ of Montreal

…
For the record I don’t live in Ireland either and I agree completely with what Peter said, as you’ll see in another thread. These are the kind of whistles that might well interest me, but definitely not until I hear them played by a good Irish-style player. The sound samples give me almost nothing for me to go on.

Steve

@Azalin of Montreal

About the sound clips, I don’t think it has anything to do with style. It’s the crude playing of a beginner, with no depth in the technique. Which means that it’s really hard to hear what the whistle can really do when it’s played a little faster, with some octave switching and ornaments. I found out that some whistles are more sensitive to some ornaments and not as stable under more aggressive playing. Having a good musician who can has good control of breath pressure and technique would give me a better idea of what the whistle can do and can sound like if you can play the thing.

I’m not trying to put slowair down for fun, I just don’t see from a business strategy point of view why the maker didnt send the whistle to some advanced whistle player and kindly ask for a few clips (and feedback!), this is what I would have done.

Also, I heard the “I will play the style I want” sentence so many times. I don’t understand why you would play the whistle like a recorder if you could actually play on a recorder. I mean, if you’re going to tongue every note and sound like a midi file, at least do it on a recorder, on which it’s easier to play in “foreign” keys and might be better tuned. Dance music, like irish music, is meant to have a lift in it, some swing that makes people want to dance on it. I don’t get it. If I love Bethoven that much, I’m going to learn classical music and play it the way it was meant to be played, I won’t try to play Bethoven with rolls and cuts as a reel.

I didn’t know that Mary had two little lambs.
Maybe you two fellas can make your syndicated case here.

[peeplj]

Peter,

One thing doesn’t have a thing to do with the other.

Best wishes,

–James

[talasiga]

@Redwolf

…
I agree with you entirely, James.

There’s also the fact that a pro…say, someone like Joanie Madden…can make ANY whistle that is even remotely functional sound wonderful. On the other hand, if it sounds good even when someone like plain old ordinary ME is playing it, perhaps it has something going for it!

…

Yes, I remember, in India in 85, there was this flute seller who was playing the most beautiful music on a litlle bamboo flute and I asked him if I could tape him. He said I could if bought the flute he was playing and that is precisely what happened. I still have the tape and its fantastic. The little flute was the worst wall hanger that I had until a child visitor squashed it.

[Tommy]

One if by land, two if by sea,
three or double click by internet,
to talk to thee.



copyright 2005

[peeplj]

James,

If I took you wrong enlighten me, I’ll edit my counter dig out. I can’t help reading your posts ‘what can you expect’ and sarcasm like ‘I hope my ears never stop me from enjoying simple playing’ as digs towards me (and SteveJ). The stuff I took you were apologising for. I have already extensively explained my motives for the post (which had nothing to do with shooting down Slowair) so I won’t go into that again here. I’d appreciate it though if you would twist my words and motives in order to have a shot at me.

Peter

I’m sorry you took it that way…this wasn’t meant to be a “dig.” You can edit it or leave your “counter dig,” it doesn’t matter.

Since you brought the matter of my apology into the public, allow me to clarify for all: there were many times I thought you had acted like an ass online, and I had taken to posting “That’s just how he is, he can’t help it” posts. This was because you do make good points, but sometimes how you make them causes people to take you the wrong way.

As I looked back over some of those posts, and over the back-n-forth PM flame war that ensued, I decided I had been in the wrong to add posts like that. It seemed to me that what I had done was in fact a subtle form of insult, which I felt bad about, because you are a person I respect deeply as a musician.

Now I am aware that we don’t see eye-to-eye and probably never will, and that’s ok. Neither of us needs the other’s approval to keep on doing what we do.

Regarding the comment that upset you, I do think you’ve reached a point where the playing of “just folks” doesn’t have much to offer you. Again and again online I’ve seen you cut other musician’s playing to bloody pieces, usually because they had the guts to actually try to use their music for something that you didn’t feel they were ready for.

I don’t remember seeing any posts in which you praised a new player or told someone they did a good job, though.

Maybe if you could try to come off a bit more even-handed people wouldn’t react to your negative posts in quite this way? That’s not a criticism or a dig, just an honest suggestion.

Best wishes,

–James

[susnfx]

It appears to me that this thread was started for no other purpose than to stir up trouble that for the most part had already died down. Talasiga, people post in the thread where they wish to post. For you to cut and paste other people’s comments from thread to thread and make traffic cop comments like “Wrong thread, Fred” (when the poster knew perfectly well where he was posting) in order to further your goal of causing trouble is inappropriate.

If you truly want to discuss clips on sellers’ websites, then search some out, post the links in a new thread here, and ask if people believe those clips further the goal of selling whistles or if they do the seller more harm than good.

Susan

[Cynth]

I am the person, I believe, that referred to the players I would like to hear on sound clips as “professional” players.

I agree with Susan. That thread was dying a natural death last night. This thread, if you examine the sarcastic language and sly “jokes” of the person who started it, both here and toward the end of the other thread, was clearly started with a malicious intention and the atmosphere is that of a witch hunt. It is sickening.

If a person cannot give an honest educated critique of music performed in public, then there is really not much point to this forum for me. Being a beginner, I really need to hear the opinions of experienced people about the style and repertoire of the playing of others playing ITM. I need to find out who would be good performers to listen to.

I understand that many people do not wish to be burdened with standards as they enjoy their instrument. There are others who are seriously playing a completely different style and repetoire than that of ITM. That is fine, I surely don’t care. But I fear that the people who know what would come up to snuff in ITM will get sick enough of this sort of thing to leave. I know one person of that level of experience who already has.

[Tyghress]

There is another, far more reasonable solution, IMHO. Sound clips are worthless in judging whether an instrument is a good fit. There are far too many variables involved. The only sensible way to judge a whistle’s characteristics is to play it and listen to it live.

I play a whistle. Two variables. I record it with a mike onto a computer with a software program. We’re up to five variables now. You play it back with a different program and speakers of unknown quality in a room of different characteristics. How on earth can you judge what a whistle sounds like under these circumstances?

The idea of people who are known in this community loaning their instruments out may be the best way to go about seeing if a whistle is good for you. My sincerest thanks to the Chas’s and Bloo’s and others who have done this for me. For Jessie who seems to try out every whistle out there…for the people who sell their used whistles at lower prices so people like me can try out a wide range.

Sound clips don’t tell you a thing.

[Wombat]

The instrument is aimed at the high end market. Nobody selling an expensive guitar or flute or … would have a relative beginner play sound clips. You probably wouldn’t have Hendrix or John Williams either (if it were guitar). You’d have a good teacher or studio musician playing something clear and simple that people of all standards could relate to. If you were aiming for sales in a particular market you would have a competent player playing an intermediate level piece in that style. You’re only damned if you pick the wrong style or you pick examples that can easily be criticised on technical grounds.

BTW, would anybody hearing Hendrix on a Fender seriously think that all they might have to do to sound like that is to buy a Fender? That’s why the thoroughly experienced, in control player, playing something relatively simple is the way to go.

[Teri-K]

@Tyghress

There is another, far more reasonable solution, IMHO. Sound clips are worthless in judging whether an instrument is a good fit. There are far too many variables involved. The only sensible way to judge a whistle’s characteristics is to play it and listen to it live.


Sound clips don’t tell you a thing.

That’s a good point, Tyghress. Pat O’Riordan, nor John Sindt have websites. Mike Burke and Chris Abell don’t provide clips on their. How in the world have they survived?

[Tommy]

Keep whistling.

[Tommy]

MUSIC

[talasiga]

@susnfx

It appears to me that this thread was started for no other purpose than to stir up trouble that for the most part had already died down. …

The idea of this thread is to allow a general discussion of sound clips on maker’s websites - a discussion which canvasses all levels and complexions of communication tolerated by the owner of this forum.

To hijack a thread initiated to launch one particular maker’s website - to hijack it with a general discussion of all websites - seems unfair to me.

I think the rationale for the creation of this thread is pretty patent if you read the initiating post which is amply supported by the quote of Mr Laban.

The discussion of the issue of soundclips does not die down forever just because it has dissipated (or appears to some to have dissipated) in one thread.

[talasiga]

@Cynth

I…
If a person cannot give an honest educated critique of music performed in public, then there is really not much point to this forum for me. Being a beginner, I really need to hear the opinions of experienced people about the style and repertoire of the playing of others playing ITM. I need to find out who would be good performers to listen to.

…

If you have been reduced to listening to soundclips on commercial whistle websites to hear a good performer of ITM - my condolences to you !

:roll:

[TomB]

[quote=“talasiga”][I do not mean to be a surrogate moderator here. /quote]


Seems like that is exactly what you are trying to do. If you have an issue with a post, I suggest a PM or e-mail to Dale. This is his place, and he can moderate as he so chooses.

Sure, bring your issues to him, that’s proper. Dale, in turn, listens to members opinions, and moderates as he feels best.

All the Best, Tom