A few (too many!) questions from a newcomer

Irish Flute
1

Hello everyone,

I have been lurking for some time now, sucking in information, but now I feel I need to ask a few questions.

Firstly a little bit about me. I am an Engineer, originally in the aerospace industry (aerodynamic and structural dynamics at Airbus), and now a software engineer (writing compilers). I am 39 years of age, and while I had a tin whistle when I was about 12, I only recently (about one and a half years ago) started to play again, which I found most enjoyable and relaxing (and frustrating!). I got a Generation C and F of which the F was good (the C was unfortunately only good in the first octave), and later a Sweetone D, which was nice. I slowly learnt, but found whistles a little bit shrill and loud (not what you want when you’re not too good!), so decided to try the flute about 8 months ago, getting a Tony Dixon Low D Duo (so I could try the low D whistle), and I also got a high D duo so I could try the piccolo too.

It took me about half a day to get my first note out of the flute, but by the end of the day I could get the first octave and a bit if the second. However, I couldn’t play tunes, as the notes would desert me mid tune! I’ve got over that now, and I can play about ten tunes from memory, though I can only do very rudimentary ornamentation. I really like the mellow sound of the flute, and not meaning to disparage the whistle, it’s main advantage to me is the flutes ability to play low notes loud and high notes softly, which the whistle just cannot do (at least in my hands!), and it doesn’t clog up with moisture either.

I’ve just realised that I’m rambling on a bit, so I had better get on to my questions!

Why does half holing in the first octave not seem to work very well, with the strength dropping to almost nothing? Is this an embouchure issue or a peculiarity of my flute?

Still on the subject of half holing, is this a rough term, as literally half holing causes a slight flattening and I seem to have to cover at least two thirds of a hole before I get a half note step in pitch?

The second octave C# seems easier to get if I cover the E and F# holes. Is this normal, or a quirk of my flute?

I only seem able to get up to the second octave C# (after that they are either non-existent or a bit too windy to be nice!). Is this a reasonable limit, or should I be able to go higher, and if so, how much?

I understand that half holing can be used to get flats, sharps and naturals, but I’m a bit confused about a few aspects of this. For example, there are three steps between E and F#, so does this mean that you have to two-thirds cover the E hole for an E#/Fb, and one-third cover it for an F? However, if I try this, there don’t seem to be enough distinguishable notes!

The piccolo seems incredibly hard to get the second octave on, requiring what I would describe as a very tight embouchure. Is this normal, or am I doing something wrong? I do tend to find that spending time on the piccolo improves my upper octave on the flute.

On a whistle (I know this is the flute forum!), if I blow a first octave D and open the B hole, the pitch rises but not to a second octave D, which seems to require a little more air to get it there. This is true of all my five whistles (Generation C and F, Sweetone D and Dixon low and high D’s), but I cannot reproduce this effect on a flute. Does anyone know what causes this?

I feel that I’m at the point where I’d like to get a better flute than my trusty pipe with holes in it, and I’ve been looking around, and listening to people’s comments too, but it is quite confusing. I think I’d like a wooden flute, but is this just because it looks nice (I do think wood is beautiful), or should I not rule out the plastic models like the Dixon 3 piece, M&E, Seery, etc.? I’ve been looking at a De Keyzer 4 piece, a Sloan D Celtic Standard (both available at Hobgoblin), a Bleazy (R&R or Pratten) and an Ormiston, all keyless and blackwood. I think the Ormiston would be by far the best of these, and is £540 and the Bleazy’s are £260 to £350 for R&R and Pratten respectively with the De Keyzer and Sloan about the same. Am I looking at the right sort of instruments, or is there something obviously better? For example, the Casey Burns Folk Flute has been raved about lately, but doesn’t seem to be available in Britain, and I would prefer one made locally in case I have problems with it. Should I go for a Pratten or an R&R (indeed what is my Dixon polymer closest to?).

I would appreciate your comments on all the above points greatly.

Thanks,

Andrew.

P.S. :blush: I posted this without the subject set the first time (it’s late and I need to sleep!).

2

Hi Andrew,
You are in Bristol? You may like to visit flutemaker Dominc Allan and try his flutes, he lives near Glastonbury.
See www.woodflutes.co.uk £400 for a keyless flute, £1150 for an eight key.
I recommend his smaller holed model, he made me a lovely eight key, see www.flutesong.net/music/Allan_flute/Allan_flute.htm

~Hans

3

Hi Andrew,

I am not an expert on music theory (my degree was in geology), but I do think that I can help clear up a misconception you have about intervals in the major scale. The diatonic major scale that we all are familiar with is do, re, me, fa, so, la, ti, do. In this scale there are two half-tones, and they occur between the third and fourth and between the seventh and the eight notes of the scale. All of the other intervals in the scale are whole-tone intervals. There are no intervals in the scale of three half-tones. There are larger 3 half-tone intervals in other melodic scales, but not in the diatonic major scale. So you don’t need to worry about trying to cover 2/3 of a finger hole.

To play a chromatic scale of twelve tones on a diatonic instrument like the keyless Irish flute, you need to employ half-holing and cross-fingering techniques. The notes of the diatonic scale are easily fingered, however, there are going to be variations in the way that you finger the five remaining chromatic notes of the scale. Some of the variables are: the size of the finger holes, cylindrical vs. conical bore flute, key being played, etc. Referring to a good finger chart, you need to work out what works out the best for your particular flute and for your preference. For example, on my cylindrical bore low D flute I half-hole the Eb or D# and the F natural, whereas I use cross-fingering for the G#, the Bb and the C natural. If I have the option, I choose the cross-fingering over the half-holing.

With regard to half-holing in general, I believe that it is much easier to sucessfully half-hole larger size finger holes. There is an acoustic principle at work here, and it is that it takes a certain volume of air to produce a good sounding note on the flute. As the finger hole diameter gets smaller, when you close half of an already small hole with your finger, there is hardly enough air allowed to pass through the finger hole, and the resulting note is weak and airy.

Best wishes,
Doug Tipple

4

Hi Andrew,

you ask a slew of questions, and I don’t think Hans or Doug answered all of them. Some of the issues you are having are likely caused by pecularities of your individual instrument and also by your newness to the flute. Tony Dixon’s cylindrical flutes are not of the same quality of his conical flutes (from what I’ve heard, and not having played one of Doug Tipples cylindrical flutes, I don’t think Tony’s cylindrical is a nice as Doug’s). So, I think you have to work a bit harder to get what comes natural on a conical flute when playing your flute.

The half holing has been well covered. As for your high C# requiring extra/unique fingering, I’ve found that to be fairly common. On my antique german flute, it works best with no fingers down, but on my Seery, it works best as OXX XOO. Go figure. Also, those higher notes are harder and airier sounding until your embouchure gets better. Irish flute requires a very focused embouchure to get the best sound. I’m not sure why you’re not getting a second octave D on your flute when you lift your first finger (perhaps your breathe support isn’t strong enough yet?).

As for your next flute, if you want wood, and you know yourself best, get wood. I have both a wooden and a polymer flute. I play the polymer most often because I’m just too lazy to want to oil and consistently swab out my wooden flute. So, I guess I’m saying don’t discount the good, conical polymers just because they’re not wood (I’ve owned, and liked, both Tony Dixon’s conical and now my Seery). Also, both M&E and Seery also make wooden flutes if you decide to go with wood, but I do think a better flute will help you progress further and be more rewarding.

Eric

5

Hi Andrew, and welcome, both to Chiff & Fipple and to the world of flute and whistle playing. I’d like to add a little bit to a few of your questions.

I think it’s just easier than saying “partial holing.” More alliterative, too. Go with what gets you an in-tune note on your particular instrument.

Getting above the second octave generally involves using alternate fingerings that take advantage of harmonics. It’s not really trivial, and takes some practice. However, you might not be able to do it at all on a cylindrical flute. Once you get a conical flute, you should be able to start working on that if you’re playing tunes that require it. Personally, I don’t. Most Irish tunes (which is mostly what I use my flute for) just use two octaves, and I’m happy with that.

Like Doug said, this is only two half steps, not three. There’s no such thing as E#/Fb.

Just like the second octave on your flute takes a more focussed embouchure, the second octave on the piccolo (which is another octave higher) takes an even MORE focussed embouchure. It’s normal, just hard. Keep working at it, and it’ll start to come more naturally. That’ll also help if you do decide to venture into the third octave on the flute, which will take a similarly focussed embouchure.

I agree that this sounds a little odd. Normally this produces a second D. It’s actually impossible to play a low D with the top hole uncovered.

You’ve got a lot of good choices there, and there are others as well. There are several top-quality makers in Ireland (Hamilton, Cotter, Murray, etc.) who sell their flutes for about the price of an Ormiston, or even less, so they would seem to be within your range. There are hundreds of posts about all of these in the archives of this forum, plus other information available elsewhere. Do some research. You should also decide if you want to go with a beginner-type instrument, like the Burns Folk Flute or the M&E or Seery polymers, or a really top-end one. The best thing you can do then is try the flutes of some of the makers that interest you the most. If you can’t do that (many people can’t), then you’ll pretty much just have to decide which one sounds closest to the type of instrument you want, with the playing characteristics you think would fit you best, and take the plunge. Frankly, you’ll probably be happy with any of these makers, once you get used to the flute a bit.

Enjoy the journey!

:slight_smile:
Steven

6

Andrew:

Definitely get a better flute as soon as you can. In my experience with the Dixon cylindrical (i.e., the one or two piece that he sells with an exchangeble head) it was really only good for finding out that if I worked really hard, I could get out a sound. But certain notes just are very weak or non existant on that flute. I was lucky enough to hook up with a Cameron wood flute on reasonable terms, and my ability to create pleasant and consistant notes was immediately improved. While I’m still no experienced player, my emboucher is not the total disaster that the sounds I can achieve with the Dixon imply.

I recently acquired a Seery polymer, because I wanted a flute that wouldn’t be effected by the weather swings that plague my geographic locale, and which I could leave put together. I like being able to pick it up for a quick tune while walking by, which the maintenance issues of a wood flute don’t allow. I do find the Seery demands a more precise emboucher than my other flute, so don’t know if I’d recommend it as a first flute or not. But, don’t discount the advantages of a high quality polymer flute, such as produced by Seery and M&E.

-Scott

7

Oh, another thing I forgot to mention is that a good place to look for used flutes (often cheaper than new, but already played in for you) is on Brad Hurley’s page. Go to http://www.firescribble.net/flute/, click on Wooden Flute Exchange, then on Flutes Offered for Sale. There are even a number offered by people in the UK, including I think an Ormiston if it’s still there (haven’t looked for a while).

The Wooden Flute website (http://www.woodenflute.com/) also has listings of flutes for sale by individuals. There’s some overlap between the two listings, but also many that are only on one or the other.

:slight_smile:
Steven

8

Thanks all for the answers. I thought I’d perhaps posted a few too many in one go, but I had them all in my mind and couldn’t help myself!

I’m not musically trained in any way, shape or form, so you’ll have to excuse my ignorance of how music ‘works’. Thinking about what Doug said made me realise that piano’s have alternate white/black keys, apart from every now and then. I guess that from white to black is a half step, but it must be half steps all the way through, even where there is a black key ‘missing’. This missing key must correspond to going from F# to G on a flute/whistle, so half holing it is pointless. I’ve looked at the section on scales in Timber, and that highlights this.

Hans, thanks for the suggestion of Dominic Allan, who is certainly local enough to pay a visit. Do you have his series one flute, based on a 19th century “Card’s Improved” flute, or the series two Pratten flute?

With regard to the peculier rise on a whistle from first octave D to a second octave D, I just measured the frequencies I get (on a D Sweetone), which are 583Hz, 870Hz (on lifting top finger), 1150Hz (blowing harder (with top finger still raised)).

Steve, thanks for your suggestion of where to find second hand flutes. I’ll have a look and see what is around.

Thanks again for all your help,

Andrew.

9

I believe most flute makers ship internationally, and there’s something to that effect on the Casey Burns Folk Flute web page. There is the few extra days wait for international shipping, but I’d advise to choose the flute that seems most correct/appealing to you disregarding geography. International services like PayPal and common credit cards make these transactions fairly secure and simple.

I’m sure that extra-britannical flute makers will resolve any problem that might come up.

One (grossly oversimplified) way of considering these two types: the most common Pratten models are typically large-hole flutes and some may have trouble “filling” them or properly covering the finger-holes. They can be louder and reedier than R&R’s. R&R’s have the reputation for smaller finger holes and lower wind requirements (WRT Prattens), and can be more versatile instruments, that is to say, they can be made to play with a broader range of tone colors.

Best of luck choosing, it’s an enjoyable dilemma.

Paul