A day in the life of an American newspaper (yes, political)

Many of the reports I read are from independent reporters in Iraq. One example would be the coverage of events like the US assault on Fallujah that were seriously under reported in US media. The only footage that leaked out was of a US soldier shooting and killing a wounded resistance fighter – but that was just the tip of the iceberg. What didn’t get shown was the overwhelming violence from US forces attributed to the assault and the resulting casualties of over 600 civilians of Fallujah that were buried in a local football stadium – now a mass grave for the victims of the US assault.

Also, the US media isn’t showing any of the US military casualties. Strangely absent is any footage of wounded US soldiers that would be similar to what we saw on US TV sets during the Vietnam War. Could it be on account of the US Government’s fear that public opinion would turn against the war as a result? If that’s true – then who’s insisting that the footage be withheld? How can the US government have so much control over what the so-called “free press” can expose?

jGilder wrote:
“Also, the US media isn’t showing any of the US military casualties. Strangely absent is any footage of wounded US soldiers that would be similar to what we saw on US TV sets during the Vietnam War.”

I know what the “official” line of thought is supposed to be on this (that it is not shown). However, I’m of two minds on it…

I understand the thinking of some of the military families that they don’t want the caskets, etc. shown. I personnally am not of that mindset (but, then, I’m not a big one for funerals, cemetaries and such, either). But I do understand that there are some that feel that way, and I feel that out of respect for those families we should honor their wishes of not showing anything.
But - I personally don’t need “pictures” to understand horrors. So that may just be me. I’m not an accident gawker - I don’t look at pictures of things like the tsunami - my imagination is just fine on its own and I don’t need visual verification.

Missy

Well, who insisted that US viewers not see the bodies flying out of the WTC? Was it media bosses or the government and why?

I always felt it was the nannies in media who didn’t want to get the US public too riled up because they might lynch anybody that looked like an Arab. Well, that happened anyway, with a few innocent Sikhs. But this “protective footage custody” works in various ways and offers various interpretations.

And while we are at it, if the government is so into propaganda, why didn’t they show the beheadings so we would get all worked up about the “war on terror?” From what I see clearly, not subtly, I think the War on Terror is a crock, between the porous borders and the continuing decades-long pass for the Saudis (as mentioned by Simon and Gilder earlier). Heard Posner on Savage yesterday, talking about his new book on the Saudis. Sounds like a great book to get pissed off about. Even though some of you are just sure you know what Savage says without actually listening, you might have truly enjoyed the OUTRAGE expressed there yesterday against George Bush and Fox news.

But to me, this is not the subtle propaganda as Gilder mentioned. It’s blatant, including the US coffin issue. We all know the US govt. won’t show it and we are all allowed to infer from it what we want.

I guess that ever since live television became possible, producers of such things have grappled with these issues. Everyone has probably seen that old clip of the Hindenburg exploding. Would that be shown now? I guess it would depend on the political implications. If none, it would be on one of those Worlds Greatest Crash teevee shows.

I remember seeing footage of that, and there was plenty of coverage about the casualty counts as well. I have yet to see US media talk in real terms about the number of Iraqi citizens who have died as a result of the US invasion and occupation.

I think the reasons those weren’t shown are obvious, but I noticed your hero, Michael Savage, had no problem posting the videos of the beheadings prominently on his web site. What could his purpose be? Personally, I don’t think any of it should be seen let alone be allowed to happen.

I wonder what Savage would say if someone posted videos of US sponsored atrocities on a website of the US trained death squads raping and murdering 6 Jesuit nuns from the US in El Salvador, or the gunning down of Arch Bishop Ramero in front of his congregation. Or maybe the murdering of women and children in Vietnam by US soldiers, Victor Jara having his hands broken for playing and singing his songs as he and thousands of others were being held in Santiago’s football stadium only to be machine-gunned down soon after by Pinoché’s military shortly after a US sponsored coup d’état there. And the list goes on and on… what would Savage say? I’m sure he would scream about it on his right-wing drivel fest and if a caller brought the hypocrisy to his attention he’d hang up on them and call them names.

Somehow I doubt I would have seen his comments the way you did.

BTW, if anyone wants a glimpse into Weekender’s world, go to the Micael Savage Website

Now I’m confused. This thread seemed to apologize for the US media and you seemed to be in support of US the mainstream news process – but now you’re saying it’s “blatant” propaganda.

It’s getting harder for US mainstream media to ignore the Downing Street Memo now that it was asked about at a joint news conference at the White House. A Reuters correspondent, Steve Holland, asked one of those taboo questions and the Downing Street Memo searches for sunlight through the murky soil of US mainstream media. I wonder what Steve Holland’s fate will be. It’s interesting to track the path of the secret memo story, and Steve’s story could be interesting too perhaps. But the secret memo story might now have a life of it’s own that Steve will not be held accountable for.

=============================

‘Downing Street memo’ gets fresh attention

By Mark Memmott
USA TODAY
Wed Jun 8, 6:58 AM ET

A simmering controversy over whether American media have ignored a secret British memo about how President Bush built his case for war with Iraq bubbled over into the White House on Tuesday.

At a late afternoon news conference, Reuters correspondent Steve Holland asked Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair about a memo that’s been widely written about and discussed in Europe but less so in the USA.

It was the most attention paid by the media in the USA so far to the “Downing Street memo,” first reported on May 1 by The Sunday Times of London. The memo is said by some of the president’s sharpest critics, such as Democratic Rep. John Conyers (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, to be strong evidence that Bush decided to go to war and then looked for evidence to support his decision.

The Sunday Times said the memo is the minutes of a meeting that British Prime Minister Tony Blair had with some of his top intelligence and foreign policy aides on July 23, 2002, at 10 Downing Street, the prime minister’s official residence. The story said the memo indicates that Blair was told by the head of Britain’s MI6 intelligence service that in 2002, the Bush administration was selectively choosing evidence that supported its case for going to war and ignoring anything to the contrary. The war began in March 2003.

“Intelligence and facts were being fixed” by the Bush administration “around” a policy that saw military action “as inevitable,” the newspaper quoted from the memo.

“There’s nothing farther from the truth,” Bush told reporters as Blair stood at his side. “Both of us didn’t want to use our military,” Bush said in response to a question about the memo. “It was our last option.”

Blair added, “The facts were not being ‘fixed’ in any shape or form at all.”

Bush said that at the time the memo was written, no decision had been made about going to war. He pointed out that it was written two months before he went to the United Nations and asked for a Security Council resolution calling on Saddam Hussein to give up his weapons of mass destruction or face “serious consequences.”

The Sunday Times’ May 1 memo story, which broke just four days before Britain’s national elections, caused a sensation in Europe. American media reacted more cautiously. The New York Times wrote about the memo May 2, but didn’t mention until its 15th paragraph that the memo stated U.S. officials had “fixed” intelligence and facts.

Knight Ridder Newspapers distributed a story May 6 that said the memo “claims President Bush … was determined to ensure that U.S. intelligence data supported his policy.” The Los Angeles Times wrote about the memo May 12, The Washington Post followed on May 15 and The New York Times revisited the news on May 20.

None of the stories appeared on the newspapers’ front pages. Several other major media outlets, including the evening news programs on ABC, CBS and NBC, had not said a word about the document before Tuesday. Today marks USA TODAY’s first mention.

Some activists who opposed Bush’s decision to attack Iraq have been peppering editors with letters and e-mails to push the media into more aggressive coverage. Last week, a group known as Democrats.com offered $1,000 to anyone who can get Bush to answer “yes or no” to this question: Did he or his administration “fix the intelligence” about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to terrorism?

“We want what the Michael Jackson, Paris Hilton and Star Wars stories have gotten: endless repetition until people have heard about it,” says David Swanson, one of Democrats.com’s organizers.

Robin Niblett of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank, says it would be easy for Americans to misunderstand the reference to intelligence being “fixed around” Iraq policy. " ‘Fixed around’ in British English means ‘bolted on’ rather than altered to fit the policy," he says.

Ombudsmen at both The New York Times and The Washington Post have been critical of their newspapers for not covering the story more aggressively.

USA TODAY chose not to publish anything about the memo before today for several reasons, says Jim Cox, the newspaper’s senior assignment editor for foreign news. “We could not obtain the memo or a copy of it from a reliable source,” Cox says. “There was no explicit confirmation of its authenticity from (Blair’s office). And it was disclosed four days before the British elections, raising concerns about the timing.”

So you do want those things that can be laid at the feet of the U.S., even old indirectly-linked (like Victor Jara) events shown, but not modern atrocities committeed by direct combatants? How is that an improvement? Maybe I am not understanding this.

And when did I call Savage a hero? He’s a radio personality who brings his self-stated “one man’s opinion” to the table. The fact that he is one of the top three broadcasters in the nation is a testament to his message, more than his clay feet as a man.

You will notice that I don’t generalize about or even mention Al Franken, Randi Rhodes or Janeane Garofalo’s shows, because I haven’t heard them. I do listen to NPR occassionally though and will comment on what I have actually heard, not what I read about from some activist.

And you never will know, Gilder because you seem to be too pre-determined in your presumptions to ever find out. You are looking so foolish on this subject because you won’t actually listen to Savage (or Oreilly, the moderate), yet continue to pontificate about what is being said on those shows. He skewered Bush better than you ever have on yesterday’s show by interviewing Posner, who is persona non grata on Fox (whose second largest shareholder is a Saudi prince). And he did it in the presence of many listeners who voted for Bush, unlike sitting in some drab little Amen corner, where everybody agrees on their basic discontent.

I don’t fit in your little box, eh, Gilder? How inconvenient. You just can’t appreciate a genuine attempt to have a discussion without pushing all your touchstones and criticizing. I never said I understood the process completely but that I didn’t agree that the Bush White House was truly in control of the press via direct and indirect propaganda. You have vociferously asserted that same message over and over again. And I CLEARLY stated that the post was not in the nature of polemic but you have pushed it there, yet again. I sincerely don’t see the White House’s actions as subtle and I said so, so the result is another one of your sneering asides.

Who knows? Maybe “you can’t handle the truth.”

Good Lord! What a site! I almost got it confused with http://www.michaelsavagesucks.com/ :laughing:

That Posner guy…I had to look him up to see what he’s onto. There’s an article about his book in the [u]Houston Chronicle[/u].

  • What makes this book worth reading begins with the arrest, in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad early on March 28, 2002, of Abu Zubaydah, a close associate of bin Laden and the source on the Pakistan/Saudi Arabia/al-Qaida connections. It is a riveting account of the wounding, arrest and interrogation of Zubaydah, who is believed to have been behind several executed and planned attacks, including the one on the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.

Gravely injured, Zubaydah was uncooperative, despite the use of “quick-on, quick-off” painkillers. His interrogators hoped that feeding the painkillers into his intravenous drip when he started talking, and stopping it when he stopped talking, would induce the recalcitrant captive to start telling them what he knew.

When that didn’t work, the Americans transferred him to a base in Afghanistan where a room was made to look like a Saudi torture chamber. Two Arab-American special forces members posed as Saudi questioners.

“His reaction was not fear, but instead relief,” Posner reports. “The prisoner, who had been reluctant even to confirm his identity to his American captors, suddenly started talking animatedly. He was happy to see (the supposed Saudis), he said, because he feared the Americans would torture and then kill him.”

Zubaydah told his interrogators to call Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz to vouch for him, and he gave them the prince’s home number. “He will tell you what to do,” Zubaydah said. Prince Ahmed, a nephew of King Fahd, was the head of a Saudi publishing empire and was known in the West as the owner of the Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem.

The telephone number checked out, but the interrogators told the drugged Zubaydah they did not believe him, and in an effort to convince them of his veracity, the captive unleashed a torrent of information about the links among Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and al-Qaida. Posner’s source, an unnamed investigator, calls the information “the Rosetta Stone of 9/11.”

“He was essentially trying to play his `Get Out of Jail Free’ card,” the investigator told Posner. “He spoke to them (the fake Saudi interrogators) as if they were the ones in trouble if they did not take him seriously. And he was anxious to have his information confirmed before we (the Americans) returned.”

Zubaydah said money was funneled to al-Qaida through channels other than Prince Ahmed. These channels included two other nephews of King Fahd – Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki al-Saud and Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir – and Zubaydah again supplied their private phone numbers.

And then he dropped his bombshell: Both Mir, the Pakistani officer, and Prince Ahmed knew that the 9/11 attack was “scheduled for American soil for that day.”

Shortly after that, Zubaydah learned he had been duped, and he clammed up. He is still in U.S. custody.

Both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan assured the United States that the allegations were “false and malicious,” Posner writes. Without clear proof, and with the conflict in Afghanistan and the looming war with Iraq on the American agenda, “creating an international incident” over the matter was “out of the question.”

And here comes the conspiracy theory, which Posner concedes could be pure coincidence.

Less than four months after Zubaydah’s revelations, Prince Ahmed died at the age of 43 of a heart attack. The next day, Prince Sultan died in a single-car accident while on his way to his cousin’s funeral. A week later, Prince Fahd died of thirst, according to the official account, while on a trip to the Saudi province of Ramaah. Prince Turki was dismissed as the Saudi intelligence chief before 9/11 and is currently Saudi ambassador to Great Britain.

And in Pakistan, seven months later, an airplane believed to be in good mechanical order, flying in good weather, crashed in the country’s northwest provinces, killing everyone on board, including Mir and a slew of his closest confidants
.

Hey Weekenders, what’s all this about? Why didn’t the news media report this?

Because Bush won’t let 'em. That’s why Posner was relegated to one of the top three listened-to radio guys for an exclusive interview on the evil right-wing corporate Bush controlled Clear Channel.

Freedom of speech, RIP.

PS. They talked about this yesterday. It looks like Saudi Arabia, which has way too many chiefs in the Saud clan, tried to do a little damage control. The one who died of “thirst” was the best. They are quite a clan, with periodic assassinations to liven up dinner parties. It’s in the book.

And that Prince I mentioned in previous Post, the one who owns 3% of Fox and has combined investments of $630 billion in American companies, offered the 10 mil to Giuliani (who refused it), was a major source of discussion on the show. I tell ya, Gilder would have loved it, except the part where Posner points out that this is an ongoing thing with many American presidents, givin the Sauds a pass. BUT, he also pointed out, that to continue the “hand-holding” after 9/11 was inexcusable… Like I said, bitter medicine compared to some of the rwhr cheerleaders…

Aren’t you even reading what I said?

I’m talking about anything and everything – including US atrocities. I was just speculating about what Savage would have thought. I’m sure he would rattle his sabers very vigorously if someone did post US atrocities.

I rest my case.

Where are all the incivility police when we need them? They’d come out in droves if I were to say something like this. Hello? Herbivore guy, Jerry, the rest of yous… helloooooo!!!

I have listened to him – he’s an imbecile. He’s rude, bigoted, narrow-minded, and appeals to conservatives and right-wingers. Why would I have any interest in that? He doesn’t allow debate on his show the times I listened – he hangs up on it. If someone seems to be a few ants shy of a picnic and speaks against him, he’ll let them talk because he knows they’ll be easy to ridicule. If someone intelligent does the same – they get a dial tone.

I’ll bet you think you really got me here don’t you? If you think calling me “foolish” and “too feckin close-minded” is “a genuine attempt to have a discussion,” perhaps you need to study the concept a bit. And I can handle truth quite sufficiently, thank you, but I really don’t think you’re concept of truth is on terra firma with eejits like Michael Savage in your corner.

Then, how much truth is there to this book:

NO GOD BUT GOD:
The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam.
By Reza Aslan

  • For many in the West, the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center turned a page in world history. They signaled the onset of a monumental struggle between fundamentalist Islam and modern, secular democracy, what the Harvard scholar Samuel P. Huntington has called a “clash of civilizations.”

Not so, Reza Aslan argues in No god but God. “What is taking place now in the Muslim world is an internal conflict between Muslims, not an external battle between Islam and the West,” he writes. “The West is merely a bystander — an unwary yet complicit casualty of a rivalry that is raging in Islam over who will write the next chapter in its story.”

That history, grippingly narrated and thoughtfully examined, takes up nearly all of No god but God. Aslan, an Iranian by birth and a doctoral student iat the University of California at Santa Barbara, has written a literate, accessible introduction to Islam (or, more accurately Islams), carefully placing its message and rituals in historical context.


A model for reform
Aslan is, in a certain sense, a fundamentalist. The Christian sense of the word is meaningless in Islam, of course, because Muslims believe that the Quran was dictated by God and, therefore, that its words are literally true.

But like the puritanical Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia, whom he reviles, Aslan looks to the first Muslim community in Medina, established by Muhammad 1,400 years ago, as a model for reform today. His Medina, though, is a communal, egalitarian society dedicated to pluralism and tolerance.

The problem with Islam, Aslan argues, is the clerical establishment that gained control over the interpretation of the Quran and the hadith: the anecdotes describing the words and deeds of Muhammad, passed on by his followers and their descendants. Less than two centuries after Muhammad’s death in 632, there were some 700,000 hadith circulating throughout the Muslim world, "the great majority of which were unquestionably fabricated by individuals who sought to legitimize their own particular beliefs and practices by connecting them with the Prophet."

The stoning of adulterous women, for example, originated not in the Quran but in the virulent misogyny of Umar, one of Muhammad’s first converts and later the ruler of the caliphate, who simply claimed that this form of punishment had accidentally been left out of the Quran.

Although women in the Medina community were given the right to inherit the property of their husbands and to keep their dowries as their own personal property, later scholars decided that the Quran, when instructing believers “not to pass on your wealth and property to the feeble-minded,” had women and children in mind.

One of Aslan’s most important chapters deals with the centuries-long struggle between traditionalists and rationalists over the proper interpretation of the Quran. The outcome weighs heavy on the world today.
The rationalists saw the Quran as both the word of God and a historical document whose meanings change through time. For the traditionalists, the Quran is fixed and eternal. Therefore, “what was appropriate for Muhammad’s community in the seventh century C.E. must be appropriate for all Muslim communities to come, regardless of the circumstances.”

The traditionalists won. The power to interpret the Quran came under the control of religious scholars, collectively known as the ulama, who ended the era of consensus and free reasoning that, up to the 10th century, had defined Quranic inquiry.

If this sounds like a remote quarrel, it is not. Aslan says it is now being played out again throughout the Muslim world. This, he argues, is the real jihad, not holy war against the West but the internal struggle for Islam’s soul, with reformers pitted against reactionaries in Tehran, Cairo, Damascus, and Jakarta, as well as in Muslim communities in the West. “Like the reformations of the past, this will be a terrifying event,” he writes. “However, out of the ashes of cataclysm, a new chapter in the story of Islam will emerge.”

This has a heroic ring to it, but Aslan acknowledges that the outcome is in doubt. He places his hopes in the like-minded liberals who, he suggests, constitute Islam’s silent majority. “The fact is that the vast majority of the more than one billion Muslims in the world readily accept the fundamental principals of democracy,” he writes. Like the reformers in Iran, they are committed to “genuine Islamic values like pluralism, freedom, justice, human rights, and above all, democracy.”

This may be, but Aslan, in his polemical conclusion, tends to assert rather than present evidence. His impassioned plea for an Islamic form of democracy, although moving, sounds sophistical. Religion and the state, in his view, cannot be separate. The very concept is alien to Islam. “At its most basic level, the Islamic state is a state run by Muslims for Muslims, in which the determination of values, the norms of behavior, and the formation of laws are influenced by Islamic morality,” he writes. Yet somehow pluralism, human rights, equality of the sexes and religious tolerance would prevail, because, ultimately, these values already exist in Islam.

As Aslan acknowledges, Iran’s halting steps toward a synthesis of Islam and democracy have been discouraging. The example of the Taliban casts a very dark shadow over the idea of an Islamic state. But the tide of history, Aslan insists, is moving in the right direction, sweeping Islam back, after 1,400 years, toward Medina. -William Grimes wrote this for the New York Times.

had already edited some before gilder’s post.

Lorenzo, that’s all about a Reformation to my way of thinking.

Maybe if you hadn’t of blowed em off and called em both “Dad” when they were trying to reason with you, they might actually care.

And if you think Savage is an imbecile, you still aren’t listening. Those darn PhDs!

Wrong. If they don’t care it will confirm my suspitions about their true motives.

There are so many glaring errors on his website. Anyone that’s well informed who looks at it can see that. I doubt any reasonable person would want to get their information from him. He’s obviously in O’Reilly’s misinformation camp.

And these suspicions would be…? If after all this time they prove to be cut from other cloth than from what I thought I knew, I’d certainly like to be set straight.

The pattern is; I present fact-based material that some folks don’t like. They attack me and/or my sources without substantiation. I defend myself and my sources and point out the prejudice, bigotry, hypocrisy, or whatever it is that’s guiding their assault. Then I get publicly “criticized” for my demeanor without the perpetrators of the assault getting anything what so ever about their bad behavior that preceded my comments. This is out of balance and leads me to suspect the motives of these self-described “helpers” who will claim to be “on my side.” I’m not sure about exactly what those motives are, but they are suspicious none-the-less.

I would think that if they were sincere they would have consulted me privately. That’s what I would do if I agreed with someone’s position and wanted to help them with their discussion style. It’s not the sort of thing you would put out for everyone to see. It seems disingenuous to me that they wouldn’t come in now and demonstrate that their criticism wasn’t biased. But perhaps they haven’t seen it yet. Time will tell.

Well, I’ll take a stab at it: Weekender (although I didn’t actually catch your post) you shouldn’t call anyone feckin close-minded.

It’s rude.



Gilder, I am not even going to bother trying to correct any of your statements, because I realize that if I say anything, I’m attacking you, and am therefore wrong, and if I don’t, then I don’t have any proofs or factual counter-arguments, and am therefore wrong.

Don’t worry- I know when I’m being attacked.

I don’t follow this logic of this objection. Are you arguing that those Iraqis who oppose the US aren’t describable as resistance because other Iraqis have different goals? So what? The Iraqi population is on the verge of civil war; of course they’re not unified.

The political situation in Iraq is complex; the correct nomenclature simple. Those who resist are the resistance. Those who collaborate with the US are collaborators.

We think of both these terms as being value-laden, because our main referrent is to ww2 era france, where the resistance were the good guys and the collaborators were the bad guys. However, those values aren’t intrinsic to the roles–we bring them to the table. In other wars, the good and bad guys might (or might not) be reversed.

~~

However, the whitehouse’s prefered term (rebel) is politically loaded, and clearly inaccurate in this circumstance. What’s happening in Iraq is an invasion, not a rebellion.

That’s a good point, Simon.

Value laden is very true, Simon, and perhaps fatally so. And I think I was responding to the honor given Resistance fighters in my objection. You would indicate that its simple, because they are resistant, that’s what they should be called. But given the fact that there were elections with a lot of Iraqis onboard, I think that rebel can be similarly simple and not loaded, whereas you don’t. They are rebelling against a new government. They are rebels.

Using the term “collaborators” is akin to quislings and Nazis to me though, especially since it has a continued use by propagandists everywhere.

I am not sure I can sort that out, frankly, but my point revolved around how each of these groups were being treated in American media and how and if it reflected a subtle propaganda hand by Bush and company. The fact is that newspapers started using the terms “insurgents” to the objections of at least some in the right wing, that I can recall. I don’t know if the White House ever issued a statement trying to counter that term. And that term was very familiar to Vietnam and Latin American events watchers.

And Nico, I had changed my wording while Gilder was composing his post. I did take it back and replaced it with something else. Sorry for muckin’ up the board wi’ it.