A brief word on political topics

Whistle
1

All,

There’s been a number of threads about politics lately, and I get the feeling it’s a flamewar waiting to happen (if it hasn’t happened already).

Please remember that the music has brought together here people from all over the national, cultural and political spectrum, and that no matter what your position, there will almost certainly be people here that disagree vehemently with it – and people that come here to get away from it!

Because of that, I’d encourage you to engage in political discussions on those websites](http://directory.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Chats_and_Forums/%22%3Ewebsites) that are dedicated to that purpose, where you can be sure to find people who are interested in discussing the political issues you want to discuss.

It’s been said that sex, politics, and religion are often best discussed only amongst close friends or sworn enemies, and since the world is a bit on edge lately about such things, it might be best to keep that in mind here.

Thanks,

    -Rich

[ This Message was edited by: rich on 2003-02-19 23:58 ]

2

Hear, hear! Finally! :slight_smile:

3

Thank you for posting that, Rich.

4

Rich,
I just have a request for clarification. I take it that threads applauding or criticising those currently engineering or opposing war fall under your description of out-of-bounds political topics. But what about ‘Racism and the Irish’ and that travellers thread a while back? I, myself, think that these topics, although strictly OT, are still close enough to the particular interest that brings us together to warrant retention. If I get angry with some of the things said on them, I now wait until I’m no longer angry before I post.

My question: were you including threads like this amongst those you are trying to discourage?

5

My question: were you including threads like this amongst those you are trying to discourage?

Well, my post was motivated by the impending war and related events, but i’m not really thinking of particular topics; I phrased it the way I did on purpose. I don’t think people would bring up “Racism and the Irish” with a bunch of people at a session or dinner party or feis or pub, so my gut feeling is that it’s asking for trouble here too. Even when it’s tempting to think that there’s a tight circle of friends reading posts, you need to keep in mind the hundreds of other active members that will see the thread.

But I’m not saying that there is a rule against political posts, only that it is worth considering whether or not those subjects are really what people are coming here to see, and whether not they’d be more appropriate for venues designed for such things.

Cheers,

    -Rich
6

While I agree that political topics oughtn’t to strictly be disallowed. The political argumentation has been a bit saddening.

7

Rich

I hear and will comply

8

Got the message.

I’ll only comment that the recent political threads have IMO been pretty well-behaved–I’ve seen much worse on-topic threads!–and have served as an exchange of ideas. I had the impression most participating did understand the others’ points of view a bit better at the end.

I also believe those not interested, or bored, or saddened by these topics just don’t need to read. That is why the OT label and precise title are there for. What’s the sense of lurking in there if you’re gonna be saddened or crossed ? Now if you compare views and posts statistics…

Of course I can be wrong.

I just fear that a policy of avoiding any touchy topic may end up as with what we call in France “les vieux couples” – old pairs ?
Starts you quietly withdraw from any subject bringing to some argument
–no mother-in-law;
then you don’t mention any touchy topic
–no religion, no politics;
then you don’t talk much
–no art, no movies criticism;
finally you just read your newspaper at breakfast, and watch the tube back from work
–no sex.
It’s supposed to be better for the kids :smiley:

What is this to say ? Just that self-censorship is to me a way worse thing than censorship. In short, I’d prefer you locking a thread.

This said, I’ll abide by your… advice.
No religion, no politics. And no sex (this, i can only promise to try my best).

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2003-02-20 05:47 ]

9

Well put, Rich, particularly regarding the fact that there’s a flame war waiting to happen.

While most of the hot political discussions here have been conducted in a reasonably civilised manner, there have already been a few unnecessarily offensive posts, and sooner or later some of the people insulted are going to find that their “patience is running out” (look how historically loaded even that expression is!). And a lot of those threads are like car wrecks, you know you shouldn’t even slow down to look, but they just do exercise a gruesome fascination.

So it’s better to try to keep C&F an orderly house by the exercise of self-restraint than run the risk of it being wrecked by unbridled first-amendment fundamentalism (see what I mean?).

My only previous experience of this kind of music forum was the Mudcat](http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfm%3EMudcat) Café , where I found an amazing amount of helpfulness on music questions. After joining, I was then shocked by the proliferation of political flame threads there, but in time realised that this was hardly surprising because political commitment is an essential part of the “modern folk music” tradition. And even allowing for this, quite a few Mudcat old hands seem to have lost interest in the forum because they think that the political threads are so prevalent now.

Here on C&F I think there is all the more reason to be extra-careful about letting things degenerate and spoil the great atmosphere. Just look at the way one cross word borrowed another and things got totally out of control here recently - and it wasn’t even about politics. In fact I don’t even remember what it was about! I couldn’t help feeling that the same people, if they were sitting face to face, would probably get along fine, or at least remain civil to each other.

Regarding where we draw the line on OT threads on C&F, I suggest it falls somewhere between the “Racism among the Irish” and the “Travellers” threads. I am personally disgusted at the racism which has come to the surface among Irish people living in Ireland, but don’t really think that C&F is the place to discuss it. The Travellers thread had the potential to be on the wrong side of the line, but it was brought within the bounds of legitimacy by the presence of valid content about how traveller musicians including pipers and whistle players (some of whom are personally known to C&F members) have been treated in Ireland and the US.

After 11 September, it was understandable that people in the C&F community wanted to express their feelings with friends, even those whom they have never met, and the non-Americans among us understood this. But just as the subsequent actions of the US Government have tested the forbearance of even those people around the world who are favourably disposed towards the people of the US), the risk is that the invocation of the 11 September licence for a presumption that “those who are not with us are against us” and associated proliferation of political threads could lead to the alienation of a lot of C&F members both in the US and elsewhere.

My €0.02 worth. BTW, how much guacamole would €0.02 buy me in California?

10

On 2003-02-20 06:16, Roger O’Keeffe wrote:

But just as the subsequent actions of the US Government have tested the forbearance of even those people around the world who are favourably disposed towards the people of the US), the risk is that the invocation of the 11 September licence for a presumption that “those who are not with us are against us” and associated proliferation of political threads could lead to the alienation of a lot of C&F members both in the US and elsewhere.

That must be the reverse side of a statement made by Someone rather famous, “he that is not against us is for us.”

11

Rich
I believe that we as mature adults should be able to control our emotions in discussions on these boards. If we fail that then we fail ourselves and no one else.
Political topics are like most topic on the board, they are the spirit of the moment. The enlighten, anxiety, frustration or the need to simply vocalize one’s point of view. I believe this can be done within reason by most members of our community.
Once in a while we find someone who will step over the line and our reaction should be to let that thread die and not respond to it no matter how much we feel we must “right the wrong”.
I do not think that your generosity at hosting this site should force you to be a “Hall monitor” for bad poster. Rich
I believe that we as mature adults should be able to control our emotions in discussions on these boards. If we fail that then we fail ourselves and no one else.
Political topics are like most topic on the board, they are the spirit of the moment. The enlighten, anxiety, frustration or the need to simply vocalize one’s point of view. I believe this can be done within reason by most members of our community.
Once in a while we find someone who will step over the line and our reaction should be to let that thread die and not respond to it no matter how much we feel we must “right the wrong”.
I do not think that your generosity at hosting this site should force you to be a “Hall monitor” for bad poster.
I would also like to thank you and Dale for the time and energy of running this site.

Phil Armstrong

12

On 2003-02-20 06:32, Walden wrote:

On 2003-02-20 06:16, Roger O’Keeffe wrote:

But just as the subsequent actions of the US Government have tested the forbearance of even those people around the world who are favourably disposed towards the people of the US), the risk is that the invocation of the 11 September licence for a presumption that “those who are not with us are against us” and associated proliferation of political threads could lead to the alienation of a lot of C&F members both in the US and elsewhere.

That must be the reverse side of a statement made by Someone rather famous, “he that is not against us is for us.”

Interesting observation. Indeed, it is the contrapositive of that statement and therefore logically equivalent to it.

13

I have been guilty of posting political opinion from time to time.

I will refrain in the future–Rich’s job is already hard enough without anything I do making it worse.

Best,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

14

On 2003-02-20 08:32, Wizzer wrote:
Rich

I do not think that your generosity at hosting this site should force you to be a “Hall monitor” for bad poster.


Phil Armstrong

Phil, I think that Rich and Dale run the risk of facing legal action if things get out of hand in certain ways. Perhaps someone better versed in the law could be a bit more specific than I’m being. If that’s the case, they would be foolish not to monitor. Too many people here think that intervention is a bit like taking your bat and going home if you don’t like the way the game is going. There’s more to it than that.

15

Well put, Wombat, and thanks for reminding this issue. If Rich had only alluded to it (I understand, Ric: repeating oneself gets boring, but sometimes it helps…), I’d have simply accepted the warning with no further comments.

16

Phil, I think that Rich and Dale run the risk of facing legal action if things get out of hand in certain ways. Perhaps someone better versed in the law could be a bit more specific than I’m being. If that’s the case, they would be foolish not to monitor. Too many people here think that intervention is a bit like taking your bat and going home if you don’t like the way the game is going. There’s more to it than that.

One thing it’s easy to forget–and I’m as guilty of this as the rest–is that we are here entirely because Rich and Dale have at their own expense and using their own valuable time created this haven for us.

If they ever “take their bat and go home” the game stops–forever. Without Rich and Dale there is no Chiff and Fipple message board at all.

Best,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

17

As an alternative, I do have a forum section for current/world events in the discussion area of Gaelic Crossings. (www.gaeliccrossings.com/forums, scroll towards the bottom.)

There have been a couple of posts in the North America forum (Mostly regarding the recent State of the Union speech by Pres. Bush).

Aodhan

18

I will also refrain (sorry about the post a few minutes ago, I hadn’t read this thread yet).

One interesting point, though. The “HUGE MOUMENTAL NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN” flame war that occurred recently was started in an on-topic thread. I have found the two “political” threads to be far more civil than many of the on-topic threads.

John Mac

19

Fair points Rich. However, there is a saying in Australia - and please excuse the language - “opinions are like arseholes: everyone’s got one”.

Meaning, sometimes you can’t help people expressing views no matter what. What impresses me about this site is the international flavour and general courtesy and decency of the posters. Take the recent “Racism and the Irish” thread - out of that came some pointedness on occasions, apologies on others, and sharing of views on yet more. A lot of learning and “seeing the other side of the fence” went on, and overall a level of decency was maintained - albeit way OT.

Take a look at http://www.allblacks.com and view the discussions between the average Kiwi male discussing his favourite topic of rugby to get an idea of how a forum can degenerate into vulgar polemics.

My experience of C&F is that the posters are generally self-policing, and only the occasional reminder from Rich or Dale is necessary.

20

On 2003-02-20 11:01, nickt wrote:


My experience of C&F is that the posters are generally self-policing, and only the occasional reminder from Rich or Dale is necessary.

As I understand it, that would be Rich’s view. Despite occasional exasperation, I don’t think he is going to ‘take his bat and go home.’

The liveliness and loopyness of this board is great and none of us want to see that go. But funny ribbing and teasing is one thing; incontinent abuse another. I’ve had to bite my tongue till it bleeds on one or two occasions recently to resist the temptation to write scathing replies to political posts that displayed all the empathy, sensitivity and logical acumen of a petulant five year old. But why give even a reasoned and measured reply? Those who would listen already know. That said, I agree with you Nick. We’ve just got a timely ‘occasional reminder.’